24mm without external viewfinder?

[LeikaSchorsch]

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I am about to buy my first Leical, a M240. I am not sure about my first focal lens to buy with. I am not looking for any special lense that I might use on one occasion or another but rather the one or two lenses that would serve for a whole holiday. 

 

I tend to shoot in the city, wide, often at 28mm which is the widest my Zoom gives me. Often I would like to have a slightly wider lens.  So I think a good choice would be a 24 mm and a 35 mm on the Leica and later perhaps a 50mm.  If I buy a 28 mm as my base focal lens I feel the 35 would be to close so I would probably end up with 28 and 50 mm.  So essentially my question is whether I should start with 28mm lens (and later add 50) or with a 35 lens (and later add 24mm).

 

The decision also depends on this strange external viewfinder that the Leica seems to need. I can't see myself using a 24mm (which is still a "normal" focal length) and having a clunky device mounted on top of it. Just beats the concept of simplicity that the Leica stands for. I went up and down this forum whether it's practical to use the 24mm without external viewfinder. I didn't find much  (hope I didn't miss a thread) so I put up the question here:

 

In your experience, is the 24mm usable in day to day shooting like street without external viewfinder? Can you compose the image using the internal viewfinder (I would hate to take the camera down and look into LV all the time)?   

 

Any suggestion on whether a 28m is a good starting lens is welcome as well.

[jaapv]

It depends on whether you are able to visualize the field of view of the focal length you are using.

 

External viewfinders have bee a part of the Leica ( and other non-ttl viewing systems) system since the late 1920ies,

 so there is nothing "non-Leica"  about them.

 

I used my 24 often without external viewfinder when I had to carry one or each wideangle lens I had with me, but I must confess the EVF has made me lazy, so I almost always slip it on when going wide. Or long, for that matter.

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[jaapv]

I would say a 28 -and even more so by a considerable margin a 35- is a better starting lens than a 24 which is less universal, although it certainly depends on the photography you want to produce.

I personally would find it quite limiting to go outdoors with just a 24 on my camera, but then I like to cut out the clutter from my images.

But on the other hand I share your feelings about the closeness of the 28 and 35.

28 and 50 would be more of a combination for me.

 

It is a decision you need to take yourself on basis of your usage.

[pedaes]

Welcome. I use a 24 without a finder and it works ok if you look round the edge of the viewfinder. Like Jaapv, I cannot imagine this as my sole lens. The Elmarit is thought to be nearer 25 than 24, so it is a bit near a 28 to have both. The 35 or 28 would be the way for me, and if you wait a couple of weeks you could get the new 28 Summilux. 

[cirke]

the RF is about 26mm  one can shoot on M9  with a 24mm and you get an extra 2mm bonus

Edited May 22, 2015 by erick

[edwardkaraa]

I'm not sure about leica lenses but my zeiss 2.8/25 biogon brings out the 35/135 frame, so I ordered a new mount from zeiss that brings out the 28/90 frame. I just frame tightly and never have any problems doing so.

[skinnfell]

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If you squeeze your eyeball to the glass of the viewfinder, you can -almost- see the entire 24mm field of view.

 

However, Please allow me to turn the argument upside down:

The external viewfinder is one of the greatest things about the M system, and in my mind really purifies the shooting experience. After all there is nothing there to take your mind off the subject.

Given, there's no gain without pain, and there are definitely some drawbacks that you have to evaluate.

This kind of work presumes that you are shooting at an aperture that makes focussing superfluous.  (Say, f11 at 3 metres.). With experience you can even set focus by guesswork as well.

On the other side, if you are going to shoot your architecture at F1.4 then you will probably have to do the switch-a-roo-routine of focussing first, then composing through. Or resort to Live View.

 

Whether 24mm makes a good "standard" focal lenght is entirely up to you. You will probably find that 24 on a Leica looks a lot more relaxed (pleasing) than the same focal lenght on SLRs.

 

 

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Edited May 22, 2015 by skinnfell

[dpitt]

I makes perfect sense to start with the lens in the middle of the range you plan to buy. Start with 35mm and use it for a while to get used to the VF experience.

Then add a second lens. And possibly an EVF or a VF.

EVF will give you a SLR-like experience…and it would allow you to buy a non rangefinder coupled 24mm (much cheaper) because it can focus in EVF.

With 24mm zone focus is easy most of the time so you could still use the internal VF , and only in critical situations use the EVF to focus and frame.

I think that is how I would do it if I was into wide as much as you seem to be.

[algrove]

OP--LeicaS

 

Like many have said lens selection is a very personal choice. That said if you are a "wide" type of person I would start with the 35 since it serves well with street (people) and gives a sense of surroundings for many images, not to mention being an easy go to lens on a one lens setup. You might find that with a Leica you will be encouraged to shoot more street than you have ever done in the past due to its size and ease of use. A Leica just brings out the street shooter in many of us, which I personally never did prior to owning a Leica.

 

As for wider, if you often find yourself in Europe or elsewhere where the streets tend to be more narrow and a vertical image works as well as horizontal you might skip the 24 and go to the 21mm FL. It is a small lens and works for landscape, street, architecture, interiors, etc. Plus it separates you just that bit more from the 35, if that's your starting point. 

 

As food for thought, I have attached this Leica blog article whcih also references another Leica blog article on landscape with Leicas. Enjoy your Leica and do not stress too much over lenses, just enjoy it and you will know over time which FLs are right for you.

 

 

Louis Foubare: Fluidity and Unpredictability in Street Photography « The Leica Camera

Edited May 22, 2015 by algrove

[IWC Doppel]

The VC viewfinder metal  21/25 is superb, I prefer this over Leica's latest metal viewfinders. I'd pick one of these up and then your covered for 21mm as well (The 25 is darn close to 24)

 

I use the latest Leica 18mm viewfinder and took it back once as it flares and simply isn't as good as the VC, I even tried the 24 and 21 at the same time, in the shop we all agreed the VC was better ! I am happy enough with the 18, but took it back simply because it was not as good as the VC and thought there was obviously something wrong. We all left surprised and Whilst I don't have any real issues with the 18, if VC ever bought out an 18 I's buy it if its as good as the 21/25

 

The only very small win for the Leica is it hold the framing lines more visibly in some conditions but it less contrast and flares when the VC doesn't 

 

You could ofcourse buy the 18 and use the M8 lines which is circa 24, if you intended to eventually get the 18 (not sure if they still mark up the viewfinders with M8 lines)

[Samir Jahjah]

I am about to buy my first Leical, a M240. I am not sure about my first focal lens to buy with. I am not looking for any special lense that I might use on one occasion or another but rather the one or two lenses that would serve for a whole holiday. 

 

I tend to shoot in the city, wide, often at 28mm which is the widest my Zoom gives me. Often I would like to have a slightly wider lens.  So I think a good choice would be a 24 mm and a 35 mm on the Leica and later perhaps a 50mm.  If I buy a 28 mm as my base focal lens I feel the 35 would be to close so I would probably end up with 28 and 50 mm.  So essentially my question is whether I should start with 28mm lens (and later add 50) or with a 35 lens (and later add 24mm).

 

The decision also depends on this strange external viewfinder that the Leica seems to need. I can't see myself using a 24mm (which is still a "normal" focal length) and having a clunky device mounted on top of it. Just beats the concept of simplicity that the Leica stands for. I went up and down this forum whether it's practical to use the 24mm without external viewfinder. I didn't find much  (hope I didn't miss a thread) so I put up the question here:

 

In your experience, is the 24mm usable in day to day shooting like street without external viewfinder? Can you compose the image using the internal viewfinder (I would hate to take the camera down and look into LV all the time)?   

 

Any suggestion on whether a 28m is a good starting lens is welcome as well.

You can certainly use the 24 with no viewfinder ... I have done it and you quickly learn the elements of a scene that will make it to the final picture.

[Luke_Miller]

The external viewfinder is one of the greatest things about the M system, and in my mind really purifies the shooting experience. After all there is nothing there to take your mind off the subject.

I agree. I find the Leica Universal Wide Angle Viewfinder (AKA Frankenfinder) to be my choice when using wides. It offers a level, parallax correction, 16/18/21/24/28 mm frame lines, and generally eliminates the viewfinder blockage from the lens and hood. It has a frameline illumination window rather than etched framelines so the framelines are more visible in difficult lighting. If you find one used it is less costly than the current Leica metal single focal length finders.

Edited May 23, 2015 by Luke_Miller

[algrove]

+1 on the LUWAV (AKA Frankenfinder).

[spydrxx]

I owned the 24 and its finder for about a year...outstanding lens, but in the end I felt much more comfortable using a 35 most of the time. I'll add to the comments, that one can (pretty) quickly learn to visualize the 24 view and not use the finder. However, using it makes it much easier to avoid some of the distortion one encounters at shorter focal lengths when working with vertical and horizontal lines.

[jdlaing]

+2 on the Frankenfider. So many focal lengths on one device.

[bocaburger]

I think the frankenfinder is the most hideous and ridiculous thing in the entire history of Leica.  People bang on about the M being discreet and then stick that monstrosity on top of it.  But I could see some reason to reluctantly use it if one had a WATE, which it was designed for at the time.  However this thread is about the M240 and with the EVF there is even less reason for the frankenfinder.  

 

Now Leica does (or did) make a 21-24-28 zoomfinder which is not much bigger than the individual one's, I have one of those, it's not half bad.  But all the wide accessory finders have a significant amount of barrel distortion. 

 

Personally I wear glasses and can't use the entire OVF field.  But also personally I don't care for 24mm so it's not an issue. 

 

To the OP, from your description, if you primarily use 28mm on your zoom and feel you want to go wider, not longer, then don't start with a 35mm.  If you can in fact see beyond the 28 frames, then you're safe with a 24.  If not, then I would start with a 28.  A v4 Elmarit, one of the best lenses Leica ever made, can be had in great shape for $1200-1400 these days (the higher end if it's 6-bit coded, but if it's your only lens then just set it manually).   If in the future you want to go 21-35, you'll sell that 28 without a loss. 

 

Or, look for a CV 28/1.9 Ultron in LTM with an M adapter.  Awesome lens, easily up to Elmarit standard, will cost you a few hundred at most.   Then when you decide you're in with Leica, get a Leica 21 and 35, but keep the Ultron for those times you want to go out with just one lens. 

[jdlaing]

+1 more for the frankenfinder.

[rafael_macia]

 

Using a finder is 100% normal with a Leica 24. (the Super Elmar is by the way a fantastic lens  ... really great !).

This would be the way I would use the combo ;

Compose basically in the camera or finder

Go up to the finder ..... frame accurately

go back into the camera viewfinder focus using the rangefinder on the most important item.

back up to the finder.

Fire.

its easier and quicker than it seems.

don't take the easy way out by using hyperfocal focus or guess the distance.

The most important item MUST (I feel), be in optimum focus.

You have a Leica .......use it to focus.

Use an external finder to frame. Using your eyeball to go look around the viewfinder and look to the edges  ....   ??  ....may work        but it does  not make sense to me. 

Also, I would get a Leica external viewfinder. I once owned a Zeiss finder, cheaper and very nice, but the frame lines were inaccurate when mounted on a Leica M9. The position of the accessory shoe differs from Zeiss to Leica, resulting in inaccurate frame lines.

This is what has worked for me. My experience. Others may have had other experience.

Rafael

Edited May 24, 2015 by rafael_macia

[albertknappmd]

The choice of lens is personal as many have said.

Instead of an EVF, why not just use Live View to assess your picture?

I do..

Albert   :D  

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[Leica Frog]

I agree with Rafael, 24 Leica Elmar-M is the great and fantastic lens, I have both Asph. 21/3.4 and 24/3.8 that's no frameline in viewfinder but I can see the outer edge of camera viewfinder instead when using 24/3.8 with my M9, I'm so happy with this lens more than 21 SEM and other wide-angle lens, however, it's more convenience to compose with CV 21/25 viewfinder too.