gwzglasinlood Posted May 10, 2015 Author Share #21 Posted May 10, 2015 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) way too much, I think. Even if it would be a "real" one, I can't understand why anything should have a higher value if there is a nazi signage It is very simple,I don't like nazi stuff neither,but if I can buy a camera for around E.1200,- on the condition "not good ,money back" and some ......whatever you call them....... will pay E.2000 / E.4000,- for it when it's real,I do that. ( just look here for the prices they pay for Marine camera's: http://www.westlicht-auction.com/index.php?id=62 ) That's why it's here and by some other experts to see if it is correct. And now I have found out it is not o.k. because not only you guys say that but other experts too,it goes back to the seller. That's all. But thanks a lot for your help (I really mean that) Best regards, Gerard. Edited May 10, 2015 by gwzglasinlood Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted May 10, 2015 Posted May 10, 2015 Hi gwzglasinlood, Take a look here I found this camera,can anyone tell me something about it?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
eckart Posted May 10, 2015 Share #22 Posted May 10, 2015 It is very simple,I don't like nazi stuff neither,but if I can buy a camera for around E.1200,- on the condition "not good ,money back" and some ......whatever you call them....... will pay E.2000 / E.4000,- for it when it's real,I do that. ..... In this case I would prefer to sell them fakes Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwzglasinlood Posted May 11, 2015 Author Share #23 Posted May 11, 2015 In this case I would prefer to sell them fakes Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan Böttcher Posted May 11, 2015 Share #24 Posted May 11, 2015 In this case I would prefer to sell them fakes Nice idea! I wonder, if you would make a difference (or allege these buyers to make a difference) between Leicas with three crowns or the king's arrow on one side and old German insignia on the other side ... is it all military use? What about a Leica used by the German police (not GeStaPo)? Would it have to be be banned too? Or is it "any engraving not made by Leonardo da Leica himself defacing the piece of art"? What about Mahatma Gandhi's or Che Guevara's Leica with personal engraving? I think it is hard to tell the difference between people who get a hard on over military use Leicas (of all countries), special engraving Leicas or old German symbols (violating §86a StGB) ... and normal people getting a hard on on sighting any old Leica. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwzglasinlood Posted May 11, 2015 Author Share #25 Posted May 11, 2015 (edited) Nice idea! I wonder, if you would make a difference (or allege these buyers to make a difference) between Leicas with three crowns or the king's arrow on one side and old German insignia on the other side ... is it all military use? What about a Leica used by the German police (not GeStaPo)? Would it have to be be banned too? Or is it "any engraving not made by Leonardo da Leica himself defacing the piece of art"? What about Mahatma Gandhi's or Che Guevara's Leica with personal engraving? I think it is hard to tell the difference between people who get a hard on over military use Leicas (of all countries), special engraving Leicas or old German symbols (violating §86a StGB) ... and normal people getting a hard on on sighting any old Leica. And that's also correct,not all collectors and historians are nazi's,if the world was that simple..... I stated that in the beginning of this topic too. But Eckart's remark as a joke was funny. Edited May 11, 2015 by gwzglasinlood Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hotte_cool Posted May 11, 2015 Share #26 Posted May 11, 2015 (edited) Hi! It seems to be a ZORKI-fake - Reasons: 1. Outlook of the seacher. The genuine Leica is on the right top halfround, underneeth is a srew. At your camera there is a square-window, typical sign of Zorki. 2. The genuine Leica push-button looks very differnet. At your camara ist looks like a mushroom, typical sign of Zorki. 3. The time knob is very different from Leica. Leica starts mostly with 1/30 and the is no step to the pushbak-button. Also there are time-marks for flashlight use. 4. The Leica pushback has a small arrow. 5. The "zero-arrow" by Leica is on the front of the camera, NOT on the back. ... and so on. Soory, I am sure: it´s a fake. If You would send a picture of the lens we would be able to comment. But i am sure it is also an Zorki copy of the Elmar. AND: The engarvement looks really not origin. Please look at "Westlicht". There You will find Wehrmachtskameras and you will be astonished about the prices. But don´t worry - if you like it, take fotos and be happy. Edited May 11, 2015 by hotte_cool Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eckart Posted May 11, 2015 Share #27 Posted May 11, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) Nice idea! I wonder, if you would make a difference (or allege these buyers to make a difference) between Leicas with three crowns or the king's arrow on one side and old German insignia on the other side ... is it all military use? What about a Leica used by the German police (not GeStaPo)? Would it have to be be banned too? Or is it "any engraving not made by Leonardo da Leica himself defacing the piece of art"? What about Mahatma Gandhi's or Che Guevara's Leica with personal engraving? I think it is hard to tell the difference between people who get a hard on over military use Leicas (of all countries), special engraving Leicas or old German symbols (violating §86a StGB) ... and normal people getting a hard on on sighting any old Leica. Well I am a prop master in the "real" world, that might be the reason why I am kind of easy with fakes. But I really hate to give the nazi symbols something holy for what reason ever. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
duckrider Posted May 11, 2015 Share #28 Posted May 11, 2015 (edited) Hi! It seems to be a ZORKI-fake - Reasons: 1. Outlook of the seacher. The genuine Leica is on the right top halfround, underneeth is a srew. At your camera there is a square-window, typical sign of Zorki. So Leitz themself did show Zorki on their manual? http://www.lindemanns.de/shop/migal/bilder/lima/56019l.jpg This camera is genuine IIIC, without any doubt! Not regarding to the engraving, but camera is NO Zorki! As far as I can see, the camera was added later with flash connector, this seems not original to me. Thomas Edited May 11, 2015 by duckrider Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerzy Posted May 11, 2015 Share #29 Posted May 11, 2015 Elmar is genuine as well, Flash sync not by Leitz Jerzy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
becker Posted May 11, 2015 Share #30 Posted May 11, 2015 meint ihr wenn ich auf meine M9 ein Hakenkreuz male, sie sich besser verkauft ? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lleo Posted May 11, 2015 Share #31 Posted May 11, 2015 Vielleicht. Wenn du jemand triffst, der nicht gut die Geschichte kennt Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwzglasinlood Posted May 11, 2015 Author Share #32 Posted May 11, 2015 Hi! It seems to be a ZORKI-fake - Reasons: 1. Outlook of the seacher. The genuine Leica is on the right top halfround, underneeth is a srew. At your camera there is a square-window, typical sign of Zorki. 2. The genuine Leica push-button looks very differnet. At your camara ist looks like a mushroom, typical sign of Zorki. 3. The time knob is very different from Leica. Leica starts mostly with 1/30 and the is no step to the pushbak-button. Also there are time-marks for flashlight use. 4. The Leica pushback has a small arrow. 5. The "zero-arrow" by Leica is on the front of the camera, NOT on the back. ... and so on. Soory, I am sure: it´s a fake. If You would send a picture of the lens we would be able to comment. But i am sure it is also an Zorki copy of the Elmar. AND: The engarvement looks really not origin. Please look at "Westlicht". There You will find Wehrmachtskameras and you will be astonished about the prices. But don´t worry - if you like it, take fotos and be happy. Hi! It seems to be a ZORKI-fake - Reasons: 1. Outlook of the seacher. The genuine Leica is on the right top halfround, underneeth is a srew. At your camera there is a square-window, typical sign of Zorki. 2. The genuine Leica push-button looks very differnet. At your camara ist looks like a mushroom, typical sign of Zorki. 3. The time knob is very different from Leica. Leica starts mostly with 1/30 and the is no step to the pushbak-button. Also there are time-marks for flashlight use. 4. The Leica pushback has a small arrow. 5. The "zero-arrow" by Leica is on the front of the camera, NOT on the back. ... and so on. Soory, I am sure: it´s a fake. If You would send a picture of the lens we would be able to comment. But i am sure it is also an Zorki copy of the Elmar. AND: The engarvement looks really not origin. Please look at "Westlicht". There You will find Wehrmachtskameras and you will be astonished about the prices. But don´t worry - if you like it, take fotos and be happy. No it is not a Zorki,100%.A Zorki has 4 screws on it's front to start with,but I not up to to discribe a Zorki now, Am a bit short in time, but it's a 1942 produced Leica were you pay by westlicht (who I mentioned yesterday already) around E.500,- for. They put the markings on it and it double or triple or even more it's value. Anyway,the seller takes it back (he was fooled to) and I am out of the woods. Best regards, Gerard. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted May 12, 2015 Share #33 Posted May 12, 2015 It's not a fake camera, it's definately a Leica lllc. I'm curious though. I wouldn't buy a 'collectors' camera like this anyway, but if I was going to I'd want to know that it was genuine before buying it. The exception would be if it was offered at less (or no more) than the going rate for a regular lllc then one might take a chance. If the OP paid regular money, then he still has a Leica lllc in what looks like good condition. I wonder if it was offered at a higher than usual price for a lllc but a 'bargain' price for a military model? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted May 12, 2015 Share #34 Posted May 12, 2015 And here's a typical Russian fake http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/244921-gold-plated-crocodile-skin-leica/ I saw a similar camera with Berlin Olympics/Nazi engraving on a TV antiques program. The owner had only recently bought it and was clearly expecting to be told that it was worth tens of thousands. I think he said he'd paid about £500 for it. He didn't look very happy! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lleo Posted May 12, 2015 Share #35 Posted May 12, 2015 Yuk, that russische is really a crap. The problem with this real Leica is its value, in case one wants it as a part of a collection: it decreases because have a fake engraving on it. But if one uses it to take pictures, well in this case it does its job. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 12, 2015 Share #36 Posted May 12, 2015 Die Camera ist echt, die Militärgravur ist es nicht: Sie befindet sich ziemlich in der Mitte zwischen Sucher und Blitzkontakt. Der Blitzkontakt aber ist nicht original, sondern später angebracht worden (auf die falsche Type der Gravur ist schon hingewiesen worden). Damit dürfte auch die Gravur auf dem Objektiv ein fake sein. Man fragt sich, wer mit der Herstellung solchen Schunds bedient werden soll, und wundert sich, welches Interesse das außerhalb Deutschland findet. str. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moritz Posted May 12, 2015 Share #37 Posted May 12, 2015 Hallo, die Gravur ist für mich echt. Sie ist so profan ausgeführt, dass man diese sich nicht extra ausdenken könnte. Sonst ist der Holocaust auch ein fake. Gruss Moritz Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 12, 2015 Share #38 Posted May 12, 2015 Nun, nun, wir wollen sachlich bleiben und auch die Andeutung jeden falschen Zungenschlags in dieser Thematik streng vermeiden. Die Gravur ist nicht echt. Zwei Gründe wurden genannt, Gegengründe nicht. Abgesehen davon sind die Gravuren für militärische Verwendung nicht von Leitz angebracht worden, sondern von andern. Cameras mit derartigen Aufschriften gehören also recht besehen überhaupt nicht in das Gebiet der Leica-Historie und darum auch nicht in das LUF, zumal die Firma Leitz, so gut es unter der Diktatur irgend ging, sich dem Dritten Reich verweigert hat. Es kann schließlich jeder einzelne und jede Dienststelle mit einer erworbenen Camera machen, was sie wollen, ob das der Intention des Herstellers entspricht oder nicht. Das Interesse der Alliierten und anderer an nationalsozialistischen Emblemen etc. verwundert und befremdet. Die hervorragende illustrierte Dokumentation von Lager zu Leica-Cameras, Objektiven und Zubehör wird im ersten Band auf meheren Seiten mit der Abbildung von Militärgravuren des Dritten Reichs verunstaltet. Einige dieser Gravuren freilich sind offenkundige fakes. Das LUF wäre gut beraten, in Zukunft threads, die sich mit derartigen Gravuren befassen, sofort zu löschen. Das alles gehört nicht hierher. str. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
harryzet Posted May 13, 2015 Share #39 Posted May 13, 2015 http://www.lot-tissimo.com/de/i/9095907/leica-mit-objektiv-drittes-reich-objektiv-elmar-f=5cm-1-3-5-gehaeusenr-384330-vorne-u-hinten-mit Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan Böttcher Posted May 13, 2015 Share #40 Posted May 13, 2015 Ich glaube nicht, daß es eine gute Strategie ist, die Augen zu verschließen. Was die "Originale" anbelangt, geht es um Geschichte. Zu unserer Geschichte müssen wir stehen. Da kann man ruhig dran erinnern (gerade um den 8.5. rum). Was die Fakes anbelangt, geht es um Fakes. Da kann man ruhig aufklären. Was Symbole verfassungsfeindlicher Organisationen anbelangt, gibt es zu beachtende Gesetze. Da kann man ruhig mal Teile auspixeln, insbesondere wenn es klar nicht um Geschichte geht (z.B. bei Zorkis). Das Ausblenden der Symbole hat sicher keine positive Wirkung im Sinne staatsbürgerlicher Aufklärung ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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