2slo Posted May 4, 2015 Share #1 Posted May 4, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) I've long enjoyed looking at the quality of images presented by some of the top Leica shooters and have looked forward to the day when I could afford to buy a new camera. I like what I see from the original Monochrom especially when paired with the 35mm summilux 1.4. Having read a selection of posts on this forum though, the QC issues (rusty sensors, sticking shutters, long repair times etc) are putting me off. Is this just a few unfortunate individuals or is this the norm in the Leica world? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted May 4, 2015 Posted May 4, 2015 Hi 2slo, Take a look here New Monochrom - should I bother?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
jaapv Posted May 4, 2015 Share #2 Posted May 4, 2015 Unfortunate individuals, I would say. The new Monochrom is based on the M(Typ240) platform, so it is a mature product. Not that the original Monochrom was a troublesome camera , though, rather the opposite. The internet is a magnifying glass for problems.There is a second point, though. The Leicas are hand-built. If you compare them to machine-built gear, a robot may make an error, but it will be the same error each and every time. So it suffices to pull 1 in 100 or 1000 or whatever off the assembly line and tear it down to destruction to pick up any fault. On a handbuilt product the faults are caused by humans, thus random. One cannot take each individual camera apart again to test, nor is it possible to put a controller behind every technician to watch his every move.Thus any hand-built product is not as consistently fault-free as a product coming off a robot production line, despite elaborate quality control.Still, despite this, we find them more desirable. 13 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herr Barnack Posted May 5, 2015 Share #3 Posted May 5, 2015 I have read of a few v.1 Monochrom cameras that were problematic, but not very many, as in perhaps ten. This forum has 42,000+ members. If one in 20 members owns a Monochrom v.1, ten problem cameras out of 2100, that would be a fail rate of 0.5%. If it were 50 cameras out of 2100, the fail rate would be 2.4%. We don't know exactly how many forum members own v.1 Monochrom cameras or what the actual fail rate is. My point is that prior to the current sensor corrosion issue, the M-M v.1 was hardly plagued with problems. The Monochrom 246 is to a large degree an M-P with a sensor that renders in black and white. The M240 and M-P are outstanding cameras that you can spend your money on without doubts or misgivings. I would expect no less from the Monochrom 246. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
2slo Posted May 5, 2015 Author Share #4 Posted May 5, 2015 Thanks for those replies. Its early days yet and I always like to do a lot of research before investing my hard earned into anything new. Looking forward to reading some tests and comparisons of the Monochrom 246 once it becomes available. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wilfredo Posted May 5, 2015 Share #5 Posted May 5, 2015 (edited) The one thing I see absent from the threads on the new Monochrom type 246, is a comparison of the IQ of the classic CCD Monochrom, and that of the new CMOS Monocrom, particulary on the quality of the tones they produce. Quite simply, the files will be different. From what I've seen, the new camera delivers CMOS quality images, which for most people will be fine. For a select few, like myself, compromise on the sensor is not an option. Many M9 users did not opt for the new M, for this very reason. I think one needs to be sure of the "look" they want from their images before taking the plunge on this new product. Granted, it comes with a host of bells and whistles, but in the end, will it give you the "look" you want in your images? Better than tests, I would suggest that folks look at the image threads on this forum produced by the various cameras. That will tell you what "look" the different sensors produce. Images don't lie. Edited May 5, 2015 by wilfredo 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
colonel Posted May 5, 2015 Share #6 Posted May 5, 2015 (edited) The M240 is a very reliable camera. The M9/MM series have sensor corrosion problems which seem to not be preventable. I agree with Wilfredo that the rendering of the M9/MM at base ISO had something visceral about it (I am not technical....) which I only saw on the S and 645D, all coincidentally using the same CCD technology from the same company. The colours on the M9 was also very like Kodachrome whereas the M240 renderers more conventionally, dare I say it, normally !! Despite this I would still purchase the 246 or 240 due to the reliability and resolution advantage. The IQ is fantastic but just with a different character. Edited May 5, 2015 by colonel 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted May 5, 2015 Share #7 Posted May 5, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) Better than tests, I would suggest that folks look at the image threads on this forum produced by the various cameras. That will tell you what "look" the different sensors produce. Images don't lie Screen shots prove zilch, especially from others. Far too many variables in the overall workflow. The only thing that matters to me is seeing the print…of my own images, with my own workflow. Jeff 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
2slo Posted May 5, 2015 Author Share #8 Posted May 5, 2015 Better than tests, I would suggest that folks look at the image threads on this forum produced by the various cameras. That will tell you what "look" the different sensors produce. Images don't lie. For me, the images are only as good as the person who takes them. I've seen some exceptional work produced by certain Monochrom users. I've also seen some poor quality snaps produced by others which might has well have been taken on a phone camera. Before anyone picks up on that, I'm not referring to what's on this forum, thinking more in terms of certain Flickr groups.As for 'images don't lie' I disagree. One capable photographer whos workflow I was looking at recently suggested that RAW images from the Monochrom can appear flat and lifeless. This I could well believe, it's certainly true of a lot of what I see SOOC from my DSLRs. It's what you do in pp that brings those images alive and even though the M is very expensive, inevitably, some of those who buy it will never be able to get the best from it. Even so, they'll still post their results. If you've seen as many poor quality images on forums as I have you'll know what I'm talking about. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
2slo Posted May 5, 2015 Author Share #9 Posted May 5, 2015 Screen shots prove zilch, especially from others. Far too many variables in the overall workflow. The only thing that matters to me is seeing the print…of my own images, with my own workflow. Jeff We clearly posted at the same time but we are making the same point. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BerndReini Posted May 5, 2015 Share #10 Posted May 5, 2015 (edited) Despite this I would still purchase the 246 or 240 due to the reliability and resolution advantage. At base ISO, it is questionable that there is any resolution advantage between the MM and M246. I will wait to look at the test charts, but in real world comparisons I doubt you will see any difference in resolution between the 18mp CCD sensor and the 24mp CMOS sensor. Reliability, sure, but resolution advantage will be theoretical. Edited May 5, 2015 by BerndReini 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoffrey James Posted May 10, 2015 Share #11 Posted May 10, 2015 I am not particularly tempted by the 246. The MM is a great working tool. Leica lent me one of the early ones for a trial, and I took a single image that more than paid for the cost of the camera. I get the sense that the 246 has a little more dynamic range and outfperforms the MM at extreme ISO. Nice but not worth the many thousands of dollars. Maybe down the road. The truth is that with the M9 and MM, we have mature technology where the limitations are one's own skill and talent. The new models are better in some respects, but at the size I work -- 24x36 in, no one is going to see the difference. The corrosion thing is a drag, though. 5 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonoslack Posted May 10, 2015 Share #12 Posted May 10, 2015 (edited) Hi There Well, first of all, I still have an original Monochrom, and it's a lovely camera and produces great results. Wilfredo - the differences between CMOS and CCD have normally been averred to affect colour rendition . . . you can't transfer that argument to black and white (can you?) It gets to sound more and more like a mystical rather than a qualitative difference. As far as the image quality is concerned - Sean Reid, grEGORy Simpson and I all agreed that you get between 1.5 and 2 stops better high ISO with less banding, and the resolution boost you would expect 24/18. Of course, the 246 is heavier and 0.6mm fatter (surprisingly noticeable) than the MM . . . . . but you also have to take into account: •Faster processor •Larger buffer •Longer battery life •Higher resolution LCD •Quieter shutter (without re-cock pause) •Less shutter lag •Integrated thumb grip •Thumb wheel •Improved ergonomics •Improved Rangefinder design •Focus assist / exposure compensation button (and that's without even mentioning Live view, video, possibility of close up photography etc. etc. ) Maybe you don't need this stuff, but it ought to be part of your decision making. All the best Edited May 10, 2015 by jonoslack 7 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdlaing Posted May 10, 2015 Share #13 Posted May 10, 2015 I've long enjoyed looking at the quality of images presented by some of the top Leica shooters and have looked forward to the day when I could afford to buy a new camera. I like what I see from the original Monochrom especially when paired with the 35mm summilux 1.4. Having read a selection of posts on this forum though, the QC issues (rusty sensors, sticking shutters, long repair times etc) are putting me off. Is this just a few unfortunate individuals or is this the norm in the Leica world? No. You should not bother. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
algrove Posted May 11, 2015 Share #14 Posted May 11, 2015 (edited) Here's my take. I owned many M9, M9P and Monochrom M. I own and have owned many M240 and M-P and will soon get my first of 2 Monochroms. Just because I spend money like a drunken sailor does not make me a good photographer nor writer, I know. I often get 2 cameras because after sitting in a bar waiting for that elusive image to hit me between my eyes, I can no longer change lenses very rapidly nor with steady hand. I usually need another beer just to open up my camera bag. To top it off I have but one eye. My good eye is my right eye so I can use Leica M's. Don't ask me what would have happened if my left eye was my good eye! Is all I can say is "Cheers"! Now that you know I "wear" my cameras for prestige, why go out and put clicks on them if it only reduces the resale value down the road. Plus it is so much fun when people come up to and ask what film are you using in your old cameras. I usually say Tri-X, they nod and go off probably not knowing what Tri-X is anyway. If I get a real smart ass I tell him Quad-X just to see how drunk he is and if I can get him to buy me a beer. It doesn't work very often. I must come up with a new line, I guess. So I know this is a long answer to your intial question about whether you should get the M246 or the original Monochrom M. I was going to suggest the next time I am in Durham, England you can buy me a beer and I will tell you my honest opinion. What is your nearest airport, Shannon? I don't go directly into the UK any longer because when using my frequent flyer miles the UK government charges me a $250 landing fee or whatever they call it. Do you know how many beers that will buy me? First, stuff on the internet is very hard to judge. To me looking at an actual print is the cat's meow. But not just any size. I would consider 13x19 smallish with 24x36 about right. That in fact comparison prints can be a tall order since the new camera is not yet available and most guys like me, after sitting the bar all afternoon, cannot afford large printing paper any longer. That means we might have squirreled away a bunch of Iford Gold Fibre Silk paper, but are loath to use it for camera comparisons least we run out of it just when that illusive image appears. Second, only you can determine what you should do. Don't listen to anyone else other than what you are telling yourself. There is only one exception to this rule. Now if you end up buying me more than one beer when we first meet I will gladly tell you my secret to this important decision. Third, if you practice at PP enough you can make any good image look lousy, but if you practice even more you can perhaps make a lousy image look pretty good. I will give you some interesting input as downpayment on the first beer you will buy me when we first meet. Oh, forgot to mention I do not drink warm beer and I only drink German Hefeweizen dunkel bier. I might be in a real crappy mood when we first meet since my local beer and wine store has decided to stop carrying my favorite bier! This is like not making CCD sensors any longer (which might corrode) and replace the entire line with CMOS sensors. How ridiculous! Every one knows that after taking the color out of a sensor, either CCD or CMOS, you can tell the difference in the colors between the two types of black and white sensors. Get real folks. Fourth, do you want better battery life, or LV, or the ability to use awesome R lenses? How about high ISO or better dynamic range? The more grain the better, no? For me, I really need the EVF due my eyesight problems, at least that's what I tell my wife. But the main reason for getting the new M246 over the old Monochrom M is simple--you can tell the wife that you must go out at night to test and perfect your high ISO skills. Heck, just show her an image once in a while and she will be happy. For me it turns out that the best path for high ISO night time photography passes right in front of my favorite tavern. Well, since I carry 2 cameras, I often have to take a load of my feet and sit down for a beer or two. Trouble is just when I am ready to go capturing images the moon is rising and it is too bright for both me and camera since I leave my ND filters at home so I can come back tomorrow night. So I trudge home and once inside tell my wife I am so exhausted from walking forever, I need a beer. Did I answer your question? Hey, got an idea why not just meet me in Munich where my favorite bier is made. They say when a Leica returns home, it sings. NO, I got that mixed up since when I am in Munich, I sing. Love the English Garden. I know somebody had too much beer to call that huge park in Munich the Englisher Garten. They must serve real good bier there. I'll have a radi too. I am attaching some crappy stuff on the internet to make my point. You really need to see these images in print. I can arrange any image for you on 13x19 paper, signed. Ask me how much after I quench my thirst the first time we meet. Let's see some images from you taken with your Monochrom. Cheers. Louis Foubare: Fluidity and Unpredictability in Street Photography « The Leica Camera Edited May 11, 2015 by algrove 17 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
algrove Posted May 11, 2015 Share #15 Posted May 11, 2015 (edited) Just having fun folks, just having fun. Remember to calibrate your monitor BEFORE looking at those images noted in #13 above. Edited May 11, 2015 by algrove 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted May 11, 2015 Share #16 Posted May 11, 2015 The one thing I see absent from the threads on the new Monochrom type 246, is a comparison of the IQ of the classic CCD Monochrom, and that of the new CMOS Monocrom, particulary on the quality of the tones they produce. Sean Reid, for one, has produced extensive comparisons. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
platypus Posted May 11, 2015 Share #17 Posted May 11, 2015 (edited) Post #14....wow! Ask a silly question and get a (wonderfully) silly answer! Edited May 12, 2015 by platypus 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kkcsm Posted May 12, 2015 Share #18 Posted May 12, 2015 Algrove, next time you're in Kansas City I'll buy you a beer for each M camera you have hanging around your neck! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
algrove Posted May 12, 2015 Share #19 Posted May 12, 2015 (edited) Algrove, next time you're in Kansas City I'll buy you a beer for each M camera you have hanging around your neck! Thanks, now does that only include them hanging from my neck or are shoulders also acceptable? I hate to bump my M's into one another with them all fighting for optimal shooting position. Be prepared to dig deep! Sure hope you have cold beer in KC. Post #14....wow! Ask a silly question and get a (wonderfully) silly answer! I was very serious that I do not like drinking warm beer, but I had to add it with the address the OP listed. I am just reminded that I might need new camera bag what with all these EVFs and MF grips taking up so much room. Where's RickLeica to steer me in the right direction? I need one bag with the potential to carry 4 M bodies and no lenses. That one is for my pub walk. Then I need a second bag to carry 4 M bodies and 4 lenses (3 M's and one R 28-90) for when I get serious about image capture. Edited May 12, 2015 by algrove 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenshacker Posted May 12, 2015 Share #20 Posted May 12, 2015 There is an old thread that recently came back to the top in this forum, on banding and the causes on the original M Monochrom, and how to avoid it. It took me a few minutes when first using the M Monochrom to determine that a high-Speed SD card can cause banding, and that I simply do not get it with a Sandisk or PNY 8GByte 4x card. I also prefer to let the buffer clear when shooting ISO 5000 and 10000. With that in mind, I simply do not get the banding on the M Monochrom that I have seen in the M246 High-ISO test images. I would like to see the M246 used under equally careful conditions to see the results. As far as the image quality is concerned - Sean Reid, grEGORy Simpson and I all agreed that you get between 1.5 and 2 stops better high ISO with less banding, and the resolution boost you would expect 24/18. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.