Which 35mm Schraubobjektive?

[lleo]

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Hi all. I need your expertise on the following lenses:

 

Elmar chrome or nickel 35mm f/3,5

Summaron A36 35mm f/3,5

Summaron E39 35mm f/3,5

Summaron 35mm f/2,8

 

I've read somewhere on the net that the Summaron f/2,8 is softer than the other lenses, but I haven't the chance to try any.

Pointing out that no lens is identical to another, even the same lens, same brand, same type, I would like to know which are the differences between the lenses listed above.

Also, compared to the Voigtländer Snapshot Skopar 25mm f/4,0. Not in terms of shape, obviously, but in sharpness, contrast, definition and so on.

Thanks alot.

[jc_braconi]

My experience is limited to Leica lens and in order you wrote their name the order of performance is the same

The Summaron 2.8 is giving warm colors rendering and contrast in the center of the frame as it was the spec. of its time

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[machmaphoto]

My experience is limited to Leica lens and in order you wrote their name the order of performance is the same...

 

Do you really think that the Elmar 3,5 cm outperforms the Summaron 3,5/3,5cm ?

[lleo]

Thank you all. Unfortunately I haven't found any test about the lenses above apart, if I remember good, one on Rockwell's site.

Machma, was Summaron du sagst ist besser?

Edited April 28, 2015 by lleo

[machmaphoto]

Also, compared to the Voigtländer Snapshot Skopar 25mm f/4,0. Not in terms of shape, obviously, but in sharpness, contrast, definition and so on.

Thanks alot.

lleo I own the Summaron 3,5/3,5 (Schraub) and the Snapshot Skopar. I don´t think that it makes great sense to compare them. The old 35mm lenses You have quoted, are  an important part of the Leitz/Leica history and I am able to see the tasteful vintage character of my Summaron in nearly every picture I make with it. If you like this also and look after it you can hardly get such results with a more modern rendering of the Snapshot-Skopar. 

 

But If I expect and look for modern quick shots in Berlin streets I take sometimes the SnapShot Skopar and have fun with it. But I cant compare this workflow with my working with older Leitz/Leica lenses. Neither in handling nor in the results. They are both fine, but have 35 vs. 28mm and I have to decide what I want.   

[machmaphoto]

Illeo, Erwin Puts says in his old Lens Compendium if I remember correctly, that the 2,8 Summaron is "better" than the 3,5 Summaron - more overall sharpness and less vignetting. And so say most Users that have experience with both. But what the hell, what to do if I am looking for the more vintage look and don´t want to pay much more money for the 2,8 ?

 

You find many stuff to the lenses you quoted in the internet.

Edited April 28, 2015 by machmaphoto

[jc_braconi]

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Do you really think that the Elmar 3,5 cm outperforms the Summaron 3,5/3,5cm ?

What I mean is going down the list the last is the best  

[lleo]

Thanks alot everybody.

I will take a look on the net to see what I can find. One question: is it mandatory to use the goggles with the Summaron or it's also possible to use it without them?

I have a VIOOH viewer and it should be ok for the lens, since it's from 3,5 to 13,5 cm.

Edited April 28, 2015 by lleo

[luigi bertolotti]

Thanks alot everybody.

I will take a look on the net to see what I can find. One question: is it mandatory to use the goggles with the Summaron or it's also possible to use it without them?

I have a VIOOH viewer and it should be ok for the lens, since it's from 3,5 to 13,5 cm.

Goggled Summaron is for usage with Leica M3, which hasn't a 35mm frame ; with any other M body you have the 35mm frame and the goggles are practically unuseful (they work, in the sense that a goggled Summaron brings up the 50mm frame and enlarge the FOV to 35mm, but you lose a bit of contrast in the viewfinder, and have a bulkier lens...)

But... till now this thread has dealt about SCREW MOUNT lenses... and of course goggled Summarons don't exist in screw mount...

Edited April 29, 2015 by luigi bertolotti

[lleo]

Thanks alot for the explanations. I just use my IIIf to take pics, still newbie to its History. I'll try to read everything I find and will get some books in the near future. Right now I'll start looking a good Summaron, will see if E39 or 2,8, though the price differences.

Anybody in here selling one?

Grüßi

[Orient XI]

Many years ago in the days of film I carried out a totally unscientific test with my M3 using 1. f/2.8 M3 Summaron, 2. f/3.5 screw Summaron, and 3. a friend's f/3.5 heavy cam Elmar (ca. 1932). Foolishly I failed to note the order in which I used the lenses, and although all exposures were of a highly detailed subject at f/5.6 or f/8, I was unable to tell which exposure belonged to which lens — even when enlarged to 12" × 16". I would, therefore, suggest that there is little to choose between the lenses.

[spydrxx]

Erwin Puts discusses the 35 Leicas in his Compendium along with MTF curves for each. The curves clearly differentiate the nuances in ability to show increased contrast at wider apertures from the central part of the negative and as one moves across to the edges, as well as vignetting at larger apertures. The Summaron 2.8 bests the others, but at medium apertures like f5.6 the differences would probably be noticeable only by a highly trained eye looking at significant enlargements.

[lleo]

Well we surely not talking about night/day differences. I noticed there are some M39 f/3,5. Do they have an adapter to be mounted on Leicas M or they are made differently? Otherwise is it possible to remove the adapter to mount a lens like the above on a screwmount model?

Thank you.

[luigi bertolotti]

The Summaron 3,5 with E39 filter mount does exist in screwmount version... it is  not rare, even if it was made in much fewer numbers than the A36 version, so that it is, in the mean, priced a bit more (see here, for example : http://www.leicashop.com/vintage_en/leica/leica-screw-mount-lenses/summaron-e39-3-5-35mm.html) : optically, they are identical, so there isn't any reason to prefer it, apart the obvious fact that E39 filters are much easier to find than the old styled-clamp screw A36 filters.

The Summarons f 3,5 in bayonet mount have NOT, afaik, a factory fitted M adapter (differently from the f2,8 Summarons) , so they can be mounted only on M cameras.: of course, on the contrary, any screw mount Summaron can be mounted on M cameras with the usual adapters, original or not. 

Edited April 29, 2015 by luigi bertolotti

[lleo]

Thanks alot for the explanation, Luigi. So basically that's the same lens in different sizes. Yes, I saw the different prices at Leicashop. I just saw one around here in a shop but it's expensive being from early years production.

[joeswe]

Google for "Puts lens compendium collectiblend", that is a free older version available on the web that gives a rundown of the historic and more recent Leitz 35mm lenses that will give you an idea how they perform and compare. In a nutshell, the 2.8 Summaron is the optically most advanced of the lenses listed and a definite improivement over the 3.5 Summaron. That being said, with an 50+ year old lens, condition is everything, so an Elmar 3.5/35 in top condition will outperform a hazy and out of adjustment Summaron 2.8/35;

 

Regarding the Voigtländer: Comparing a 25mm to a 35mm lens doesn't make a lot of sense. Generally it is probably safe to say that the modest aperture Voigtländer lenses of 35mm and shorter FL are sharp lenses that exhibit higher contrast, but also somewhat more distortion than the classic Leitz lenses. The Skopar 2.5/35 is available in Leica screwmount and is really quite a good lens, if your aim is mainly shooting and not collecting or fondling, this lens is probably a best buy for your IIIf. There are two versions "Pancake I" and "Classic" available which differ in their barrel design and handling, so you can just pick the one that you prefer. The CV lenses are known for sample variation even if new, so I would only buy one when it is possible to test and return it in case, it is not up to spec.But because of their age the same would be true for any classic Leitz lens from the 50s or 60s.

 

On a sidenote, I have recently been using a Canon 2.0/35 on my IIIf and find it to be a remarkable lens. Quite sharp and of medium contrast in the image center at full aperture, getting rather soft towards the corners, which is not unlike the older Summicron 35mm lenses. At f5.6 or f8 you get sharpness from corner to corner. The only point I don't like about the Canon is that it is somewhat prone to flare in contre jour situations, but that seems to be a general problem with older fast 35mm designs.Price is in the same league as a Voigtländer Skopar 35.

 

 

[lleo]

Thank you for the infos, Joeswe. Obviously the comparison between the 25 to 35 is in generally speaking. And it's true that two identical lenses, same brand and model, can differ. The best thing it having the chance to test them, but being 50 or more years old lens, is not easy to find more than one item in the same place.

I have the compendium in pdf but I got to get the book, I don't like reading on the computer.

I've read the old japanese lenses for Leica have a different coating inside, harder than the one applied by Leitz, so during the age they got better preserved, though keeping in mind if they were stored in the same conditions or not.

[gyoung]

I have the voigtlander 35/2.5 to use on my III and also a Summaron 35/3.5, and enjoy the different results I get as outlined above. I used to have a voigtlander 25/4 but swapped it for a 21/4 and a 28/1.9, all are good lenses in a modern way.

Only caveat is that the smaller ones don't work so well on digital (Sony A7) but the 28/1.9 does.

 

Gerry

[lleo]

Hi there Jerry and thanks for your experiences. Though I would say that "camera" doesn't work well with that lens

Joking.

I also saw a Snapshot Skopar 25mm but I just asked a shop for a couple Leitz, we will see what happens.

But in the future I would surely try a CV, probably the 15mm. Or 12?

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[luigi bertolotti]

Hi there Jerry and thanks for your experiences. Though I would say that "camera" doesn't work well with that lens

Joking.

I also saw a Snapshot Skopar 25mm but I just asked a shop for a couple Leitz, we will see what happens.

But in the future I would surely try a CV, probably the 15mm. Or 12?

The 15 is a great buy, and even better with film... moreover, they have just announced a new version (BM only) and I think that several "old" CV 15 in screw mount will be for sale because for FF digital the last version really seems to be a step up... but I repeat that the old little 15 is worth any of the (relatively few) dollars it can cost.