X-Vario or D-LUX 109

[robert-gregory]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Unfortunately my D-Lux 4 had another lens knock-mishap and its not working (lens will not lock/extend when turned on). Its served me well over the years as my compact, quick family, out and about, and small sensor photo capture camera, unfortunately repair cost (time to upgrade for what the repair cost is) and just its age has me needing a new 'just do everything' digital camera. 

 

I didn't think twice about the Leica X-Vario when it can out; my M9, M-series film cameras, and Ricoh GR with the D-Lux 4 covered what I needed. Thought the new Leica D-Lux 109 would be the new camera after my 'problem', but after reading more about the X-Vario with its larger APS-C sensor and the quality of the files, and the Leica certified refurbished cameras (minus Adobe LR) available at a price almost the same as the new D-Lux 109  I'm wondering if its the way to go.

 

Going into the local Leica shop today to handle them both. The M-series (film) size of the X-Vario is probably OK, but its still not as compact as the D-Lux is my one concern. The T is another option, and I can use it with my M-series lenses, but the cost will be more, options with lenses, but not sure if I really need that. 

 

So... any ideas, opinions, about what and why you choose either?

 

Thanks for any help!

[gbealnz]

Man, what a quandary, what a wonderful life we have, the decision is between a selection of more than suitable choices.

 

Me? Not had a D-Lux. Considered it though, but didn't get any further. Bought a used X1 almost two years ago, and traveled with it, wonderful, exceptional camera.

 

Next came an X-Vario, and it felt" unusual", more a P&S style, but the files are nice, and apart from a few niggles with the odd mis-focus, it too gets a big tick. I can see the next Europe trip in four months being the X1 and X-V.

 

To complicate matters I recently found a reasonably priced T, body only. I'd considered the T at the time I bought the X-V, but frugality took over and I bought the X-V (I mean the X-V and T body were similar in price).  That plus my local Leica place(s) all had a T in stock, but one was hesitant to even get it out of the cabinet, the other didn't have a charged battery when I call, even though I had pre-warned them. It was enough to make me forget the idea at the time.

 

Using the T for the short time (couple of weeks now) I have had it I have enjoyed it. I like the way it works, and really find I need a genuine T lens, as up until now I am using my 28/2.8 and 50/1.4 from my M6 kit. The M6, and the T, and two lenses are a great film/digital mix. If I had any complaints with the T it is the way I find focus difficult. No, not difficult, slow. Yes I can cycle through the focus magnification, and nail focus, but on a fleet-footed 4 year old? No way.

 

So, having all this now presents a quandary of my own. The Europe trip, M6/T and two lenses, or X1 and X-V?

 

So, all my preamble hasn't answered your question. If you were happy with the smaller sensor of the D-Lux, then perhaps another would be fine. But I didn't think I would like it, no reason, and a very unfounded opinion, just me. X-V will be bigger, heavier, more expensive, and with a lesser zoom range (I assume, not sure). It is a much maligned camera though, very capable, and lovely to use. I am on the hunt for an EVF for mine, if it is half as good as the T Viso, I will be very happy.

Gary

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[robert-gregory]

Yes, when the T first came out I thought it could be a nice camera to have, especially so as I could use my M-lenses. But then you add into the cost the Visoflex and M-adapter, and the fact that I'd really like an autofocus T-lens ( a 50 fixed with macro might put me in the buy column) and the price jumps up there. With the X-Vario - its different for sure - the whole package comes in at the price for the T body alone. The Vario isn't new anymore, and hasn't had the greatest reception, so its expected prices would fall on the used market, but I've been surprised the T has some good deals on almost new cameras.

[gbealnz]

The X-Vario received so much negative press at launch that it's a wonder anyone bought one. Most that groaned about possibly hadn't tried it. If you need/desire an all round one camera fits all approach it is hard to beat. No, it's not an M9 or similar, and no it's not a T where you can interchange the lenses, but as a complete pick up and walk with it package, it is hard to beat. I'm happy with mine, very.

 

If I ever sold it, it would only be because the T has proved slightly more useful, and the ability to share the M lenses is where I think I will buckle soon. However, if I do keep it, I will be very happy.

Gary

[jlindstrom]

Haven't used the latest D-Lux, but I do have the Vario. I would say go with Vario, but get the EVF, grip & hood with it. They completely change the user experience. I just had a week long vacation abroad and Vario was my main camera equipped with those and it was 100% fantastic!

 

Also, and I know I'm going to get heat for saying this, but the D-Lux isn't 100% Leica either. It has the lens, it has the design, logos & quality BUT user interface & software etc are Panasonic. It's not to say it's a bad camera in anyway and if I were in the market I would pay the Leica premium over the Panasonic version for sure BUT it's still a completely different beast.

 

Where the D-Lux has fairly complicated menus and million little settings and gadget, the Vario is a really simple & straight forward to use. In a way it's comparing apples to oranges, they are a different class of cameras from usage point of view in my opinion.

 

//Juha

[wda]

I have both XV and D Lux 109. Each has unique merits. Because of the superior sensor size I would choose to take the XV rather than the D Lux on a serious trip. (The D Lux replaced my older version 5 which needed a clumsy external EVF)

 

Handling is very much more intuitive and easier with the X Vario. The D Lux menu and button arrangements are very much Panasonic and not alway intuitive. There are features I really like on the D Lux, such as the excellent in-built viewfinder and faster lens. I use it mostly for family and indoors work, but would not feel lost if it was pressed into more serious photography.

 

I ruled out the T on the grounds that I did not need another system camera in addition to digital M. I also dislike dependency on touch screen for controlling my photography.

 

My XV is currently at Wetzlar where the AF module is being investigated. I do miss it and hope the problem is cured or replaced.

[asiafish]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Man, what a quandary, what a wonderful life we have, the decision is between a selection of more than suitable choices.

 

Me? Not had a D-Lux. Considered it though, but didn't get any further. Bought a used X1 almost two years ago, and traveled with it, wonderful, exceptional camera.

 

Next came an X-Vario, and it felt" unusual", more a P&S style, but the files are nice, and apart from a few niggles with the odd mis-focus, it too gets a big tick. I can see the next Europe trip in four months being the X1 and X-V.

 

To complicate matters I recently found a reasonably priced T, body only. I'd considered the T at the time I bought the X-V, but frugality took over and I bought the X-V (I mean the X-V and T body were similar in price).  That plus my local Leica place(s) all had a T in stock, but one was hesitant to even get it out of the cabinet, the other didn't have a charged battery when I call, even though I had pre-warned them. It was enough to make me forget the idea at the time.

 

Using the T for the short time (couple of weeks now) I have had it I have enjoyed it. I like the way it works, and really find I need a genuine T lens, as up until now I am using my 28/2.8 and 50/1.4 from my M6 kit. The M6, and the T, and two lenses are a great film/digital mix. If I had any complaints with the T it is the way I find focus difficult. No, not difficult, slow. Yes I can cycle through the focus magnification, and nail focus, but on a fleet-footed 4 year old? No way.

 

So, having all this now presents a quandary of my own. The Europe trip, M6/T and two lenses, or X1 and X-V?

 

So, all my preamble hasn't answered your question. If you were happy with the smaller sensor of the D-Lux, then perhaps another would be fine. But I didn't think I would like it, no reason, and a very unfounded opinion, just me. X-V will be bigger, heavier, more expensive, and with a lesser zoom range (I assume, not sure). It is a much maligned camera though, very capable, and lovely to use. I am on the hunt for an EVF for mine, if it is half as good as the T Viso, I will be very happy.

Gary

The EVF for the XV is almost exactly HALF AS GOOD as the one for the T.  I have the X Vario and X 113 and EVFs for each.  The one for the X (same as T) is gorgeous and is  a state of the art EVF with almost twice the resolution of the older Olympus EVF (or Leica rebrand that I own) EVF for the X Vario.

 

That said, the XV's EVF is far more than adequate and I have no complaints using it.  When I switch between cameras there is a second or so of shock as I look at a lower quality image through the 5-year-old technology EVF, but it remains crisp, clear and a pleasure to use.

 

Honestly I wish Leica had adopted the newer Olympus VF4 which is pin compatible with the older VF2.  Had that been the case, I would have just kept using my Leica EVF 2 without complaint.  

 

So, I recommend you get the EVF for the X Vario and never look back.  The EVF, far more than on the X, really transforms the camera into a DSLR replacement, albeit a slow one.

[robert-gregory]

I made the trip into the Kyoto Leica Shop soon after posting this - and yes, I’d still like any help and information from any users of these cameras. With the X-Vario, D-LUX 109, and Leica T w/ M-adapter and my 50mm Summicron I had a fun time.

 

The D-LUX 109 was out on the table when I walked in so its the first camera I picked up. Right away I was familiar with it coming from a D-LUX 4. And in some ways this made it not the camera I’m going to choose. Yes, its very compact, my D-LUX 4 always seemed to be with me for this reason, which is great, and this 109 is a much better camera in image quality and features. It has all the tech specifications I could hope for in a very small package. Why don’t I love this camera?

 

The T was next. I’d handled a T just after they were introduced, but not with the M-adapter as it was not available yet. Along with the Visoflex on top and my 24 LUX and 50 Summicron it was fun to use the manual focus. The T’s big plus is what’s not on front, I can use my M-lenses, but in some ways this goes against this new camera idea of mine. I just want something easy and all-in-one, and the T is a whole other system which I need to get a lens just for auto-focus. And with the Visoflex, M-adapter, T-lens… the price becomes more than I need. The touch screen may or may not be my preferred way to interact with a camera, not sure if it will be faster or slower, easy or frustrating. Only time actually using will help me answer that question I think. Any T users can help and please let me know what your experience is.

 

As I mentioned and probably goes along with many long time Leica users, when the X-Vario came out and I realised what it was [not], I didn’t give it a second thought and never picked one up to even check out. So today was my first hands on. Size and built quality was very nice. Its very film M-series shape and fit, which is great for my ‘hands-memory’. I didn’t feel I had to try and find a small place on the body so my fingers didn’t hit something accidentally, except the control dial that has been written about. I didn’t seem to have too much problem with it, but time would tell. I wouldn’t call it a ‘compact’, but is a nice all-in-one package. I’d heard about focus issues. In the Kyoto Leica Shop the light is very much on the dim side so I walked around and tested the focus. Yes, there were a few obvious misses, but I was surprised how well it did. As for the ‘slow lens’, I set the camera to both auto and fixed ISOs to see how the camera worked. The lens physical speed limitation is there, and that’s just how it is. I probably wouldn’t be using this camera for moving subjects in low light, but with a Leitz table-top in the bag even very dim light and stationary subjects will be fine. Hay, I’m ‘old-school’ and the days of an f3.5 lens and ASA400 are still a relevant memory ;-) Can’t say I was very impressed with the finder. The view is just not inspiring/beautiful, give me an optical viewfinder any day. I wouldn’t be using it to manual focus often, but I guess it does the basic for framing. Liked the top dial layout, the manual zoom which I did get confused with the focus ring once, the camera was responsive and in general felt fine. Its not ‘perfect’, but none of these cameras are. 

 

I like the 109’s compact size and it basically does everything I need. Its built quality is OK, it has the Panasonic DNA for sure. The T has the versatility of lenses, very sexy and solid modern feel/look, the Visoflex is actually not bad. Not sure about that touch interface, and the higher buy into price. The XV is solid well made, and the controls feel right and accessible (except maybe that menu dial). The finder is just usable ‘nothing to write home about’, but you have to have it just to have a finder. Odd to say, maybe because its the oldest of the three, but the XV feels like it has the most potential for improvements, but at the same time feels like the total package is well covered. At least for my needs.

[A miller]

I don't have either, so am not wedded to either.  If I were to make this choice, I would chose the new D-Lux.  This is based on the many photos that I have seen in this forum from both cameras.  This is a pretty clear choice for me.

[jlindstrom]

To each their own :-) After A Miller's comment above I browsed some of the D-Lux forum and based on that I would respectifully disagree, if you meant the D-Lux image quality would be somehow superior.

 

But luckily we have a choice and everybody gets to make their own.

 

//Juha

[robert-gregory]

I don’t feel there is anything wrong with the image quality of the D-LUX. The fast and 24mm on the wide end is vey useful. The lens may not be as good as on the XV, and it has a smaller sensor, but in general for my intended use it does the job. 

 

Still, its nice to have that larger APS-C always there when needed, and I do like the XV’s macro feature on the tele-end.

 

The one physical drawback of the D-LUX is how the lens sticks out so much when you turn it on. This is why I’m looking for a replacement camera. My D-LUX 4 fell over while on a Leitz tabletop tripod, on a table so not a long distance, and jammed that vulnerable protruding lens.

Edited April 18, 2015 by hektormydog

[robert-gregory]

As mentioned above the EVF for the XV is ‘half as good’ as the one for the T. The T comes on automatically with your eye placement, has global GPS, and a good diaper adjustment, along with much better resolution. Its actually usable for manual focus, and of course costs much more, but might be worth the price if available for the VX. The D-LUX has a good view too and is built-in, making the EVF for the XV the 3rd best.

 

 

The other ‘worry' with the XV is what seems to be the lack of support with firmware updates. Is there a version 2 XV is the works, and/or is Leica just not interested in investment time to support this camera? The camera has had only one update. Not sure how much more is needed, but there seems to be a few issues that I’ve read about that could be addressed; focus speed/accuracy,… One question I couldn’t get answered at the Leica Shop (the person helping didn’t know) is how to get the finder to show the ISO setting when the camera is set to auto-ISO. Kind of important with the slow lens speed and trying to stay within reasonable ISO for image quality.

[jlindstrom]

I'm sure the D-Lux doesn't have image quality issues per se, I just disagreed with it bettering the XV's.

 

The XV evf is definitely antique, but it does it's job quite well and in practise it doesn't cause any grief from quality of view point. The lack of eyelevel sensor is at times annoying, but one gets used to it quite fast. Also when shooting it doesn't bother at all, since you use it always anyway and thus no constant changing.

 

The lack of firmware updates doesn't really concern me, as the camera is already so good. Some things naturally could be updated, but I seriously doubt they could do anything more to AF as that's more likely just limited by hardware and most of the time works just fine in 1-spot mode, which is what I always use on any camera anyway.

 

The auto-iso view could be nice, but it's definitely one of those 'nice to have' things. I've just set my auto-iso limits I can live with and for the rest I don't care.

 

So yeah, there are things/issues but in practise those dissapear as the camera is intuitive to use, has excellent image quality and just doesn't get in the way of your shooting.

 

//Juha

[Douglasco]

I have been wondering what camera to get the 109 or XV. Having owned an X1 D-Lux 4 and Digilux 2.  I finally purchased the XV, It is a very nice camera with great image quality and it is vastly underrated.

For the money I personally think the XV is the way to go.

[bernie.lcf]

There is absolutely no denying that the X Vario is superior to the D-Lux in terms of image quality. The only question is whether the buyer sees or needs the difference and the answer may well be no.

 

Between the X Vario and the T I would give the medal to the T mainly because unlike the X cameras, the T does not have an AA filter.

 

I also think that it is pointless buying the T as a body for M lenses. In my opinion, one would buy the T to use it as an AF body that coincidentally does quite well with M lenses. This is the reason I got rid of my T again: I was quite happy with the Summicron, but I am not tempted by any of the zooms and I cannot see a lens strategy because it has not been communicated. So, I am back to using the M lenses on an M body and my walk around casual camera is the X Vario, whose lens is at least just as good as the T normal zoom. I miss the T viewfinder for its better resolution and I miss the 1/4000 of the T. However, the X Vario EVF2 is no bad at all and the built in lens doesn't demand 1/4000 very often.

 

The X Vario can be purchased for about 1500 in mint condition. This barely gets you a T body.

Get the DLux if you don't pixel peep and prepare to go through a few cameras until you find I that doesn't have some kind of a quality problem (based on the reports here and elsewhere)

[gbealnz]

An excellent summation Bernie, right on the (my) money. Makes me wonder if I need my T as well.

It is a very good camera, but then again, so is the X-Vario.

Gary

[NZDavid]

I've got the D-Lux 5 and it hasn't missed a beat in five years. Only trouble has been a little dust on the sensor but that's common with all digital cameras -- even those with non-interchangeable lenses -- and it's now gone. Panasonic build quality is no bad thing. 

 

The new D-Lux has brilliant analog controls. So simple and straightforward. I am just not used to a touchscreen interface. X series is also intuitive, inspired by the M cameras.

 

However, for IQ the larger sensor would win out. Bernie is absolutely right. Difference in IQ may or may not be discernible depending how you use the images. 

 

The XV would be the better performer if you don't mind the slower lens and find 28-70 sufficient. 

 

Nearly forgot to say: I picked up the XV and it felt ergonomic but it is the same size as an M with lens.

 

All great choices for compact take anywhere cameras.

Edited April 19, 2015 by NZDavid

[jlindstrom]

David & Bernie, good summaries both. Though might add for the David's size comment that the XV is pretty much the size of a traditional film M, not these digital ones.. and also quite a bit lighter than current M body even without lens.

[bernie.lcf]

The X Vario is thinner than my M8.2 and quite a bit lighter, especially because I have chrome body and some chrome lenses.

However, we are talking about half a centimeter or so - hardly noticeable 

 

If something smaller is needed, then you'd have to pick either a D-Lux or maybe the old X1/X2 bodies.

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[robert-gregory]

Thank you everyone for your suggestions, observations, and general in-put.

 

After much thought this decision is easier than I thought. In some ways comes down to my other cameras. The D-LUX’s main feature for me is the compact size. Well, I have a very nice compact with the Ricoh GR and if I need something to just throw in the bag for size this will do just fine even though limited to  a fixed 28mm and 21mm (with converter lens). The T is a very new modern design. It would be ideal if I was going to get a new systems camera with its features, and auto focus lens (hopefully with some fast primes). But the cost is just more than what I want to spend.

 

The XV has basically everything I need in a complete reasonable size package. It could be better in some ways, but I can live with those short comings and of course there are the many positives. Everything I see and hear is that the image quality is up there. ASP-C / lens. So after passing a couple times while I was making this decision I’m going to keep an eye open for those used Leica certified cameras that are becoming available.

 

BTW, the other reason for the XV is with the image quality so good I’m feeling that its time to sell my M9 and get the Monochrom I’ve been longing for. The VX will be my ‘colour’ camera.

 

Thanks again for all your help. If you have any more praise to the XV please feel free to post. It will probably just help me feel better about it ;-)

Edited April 20, 2015 by hektormydog