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Leica M 240: It's serious drawbacks for landscape shooters – but can we fix it?


Tmuussoni

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Hello all :)

 

A few months back I finally fulfilled my dream and got myself the M 240. The digital Leica M body I always have wanted. So far it's been stunning experience and I love shooting with it. M 240 and SEM 21 are particularly a special combo together. What the M has brought me for the first time I truly enjoy shooting street photography.

 

However, I have always enjoyed landscape shooting the most. I was aware of the drawbacks of M 240 when I purchased it. If you don't know what I am talking about I mean the following problems:

 

- One minute maximum exposure = It's a disgrace to even call it bulb mode

- No way to turn off LENR (Long exposure noise reduction) = practical disadvantage: try shooting fireworks when the guy next to you is going to get twice as many shots as you are

- Long exposure with high ISO is even more limited = astrophotography is impossible

- Inability to move the focus point on live view when zoomed in

 

I am aware there are plenty of discussion about the aforementioned issues on these forums. As we all know anyone who is serious about landscape shooting these issues render the M almost useless. Which is in so many ways so sad. We are talking about a 6000 € camera, we have the best ultra wide lens ever (SEM 21) - and yet it can't be used to it's full potential because of these limitations. This makes me just sad.

 

For me this is frustrating beyond all ways to describe it. To have the digital M body you always wanted, yet you are limited by such limitations. Right now I have three options:

1) Pray and hope Leica would release a firmware update to fix the issues (or perhaps a firmware hack could enable this?

2) Forget all kind of long exposure shooting with the M.

3) Get a second body for landscape shooting. Right now for me the only option would be the Sony A7r. Which I already owned once. Sad news at the time the performance with certain M wides was not acceptable. The good news now is by modifying the camera it appears we can get good performance even with SEM 21 (source: Diglloyd.com).

 

Now I most certainly would not want to choose option number 2). So what I want to know is there a way we can reach Leica directly and get answers about these issues? Has Leica ever explained the reasoning to disable long exposures on the CMOSIS sensor? I simply can't believe an overheating would be a problem. If yes, how come no other camera manufacturer doesn't have the same problem? My guess is they want landscape shooters to invest into S-system. Or perhaps Leica's vision is perfection: hot pixels are not tolared. I say this because even the Leica T has the same technical limitation. And we all know the T has a Sony sensor which is perfectly capable for long exposures without any issues, yes again Leica has not allowed it. What ever the real reason for this is I find it ridiculous. Every DSLR I ever had (since Canon EOS 300D) has had a bulb mode. Hot pixels have never been a problem. And if they are turning LENR on removes the problem.

 

I realize the game is probably lost by now for the M 240 and Leica is already probably working on the next generation M body. But I just want Leica to be at least aware of these drawbacks. And that the next generation Leica M body would not have such disadvantages for those who enjoy landscaping with Leica glass the most. M9 is not an option for me, because I think live view is a mandatory property for a landscape shooter. And I don't think I would be satisfied even with the 240 seconds.

 

Any comments? Thank you for reading this...

 

P.S. I am aware some folks seem to be bit over defensive when it comes to criticizing Leica M bodies here, but I truly believe these issues are serious drawbacks for each and everyone of us. And only together we have a chance to get answers from Leica. I certainly am hoping that a future firmware update is possible to fix some of these issues.

Edited by Tmuussoni
Some typo fixing
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I completely agree with you regarding the limited exposure time for night photography, day photography with ND filters, etc. Leica has yet to come up with a good excuse for this pathetic limitation, far worse than the 4 minutes of the M9/Monochrom (which is also too short at times). I note that some FF Nikon & Canon CMOS sensor cameras can have very long exposure times. However, I think some Phase One cameras only have a maximum of 1-2 minutes.

 

I'm not sure whether this is the correct explanation but in a discussion I had some time ago with someone from Leica about this they said it had to do with compromised IQ that Leica didn't want to be responsible for. It was suggested that there may be a firmware option in the future for users who needed longer exposures but that Leica would not be responsible for any compromise to IQ.

 

I don't know if this was correct but nothing came of it. Nevertheless I sorely miss the option of long exposures and consider it the major drawback of this otherwise great camera.

Edited by MarkP
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Ummmm... You say you read the Forums before you bought the camera. You must have been aware of these design points. Yet you must have decided that they were no obstacle to spending a considerable amount of money to buy the M.

 

One cannot but wonder why. We buy a camera to fit our needs, if we buy the wrong tool we cannot expect it to be adapted to our particlar need.

 

If I buy a hammer I cannot complain that it cannot turn a screw.

 

No camera is perfect no matter what the price was. And everyone will use the tools we have as best of their abilities. And sure, I was aware of the issues. Obviously I have no choise now but to change my shooting style according to the tools which are possible. It's still the best camera I ever had and a camera I truly love to own.

 

However, your answer is not helpfull at all. I kinda expected this kind of answer. But there is no need to be so judgemental and defensive here. All I am trying to do is get answers here. Despite my forum search I could not find any real answers about the reasons. It would be the best for all consumers, myself included, to notify Leica about these disadvantages. I am an optimistic and I think there is always hope for a future firmware updates. But only if us, as the customers, are loud enough about these issues. Nothing is going to happen, if we don't speak about it.

 

And since the problem exists also on the new T body, I am even more curious about the reasoning to omit buld mode.

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Based on your post (I have no other info) you bought the wrong tool.

 

A photographer, just like a carpenter, or plumber, needs to have a toolbox with many tools, each dedicated to it's purpose. Leica cameras are specific tools and perform their limited functions superbly. outside those limitations they are not very good at all.

 

As a photographer, your first obligation is to recognize your task in hand and choose the appropriate tool for the job. Forgive me if I suggest that you have made a mistake in that possibly you are attempting to use the wrong tool for your designated purpose.

 

I think you will agree that the M240 is very good for 'street photography', but I might suggest a MF camera or larger for serious landscape and astro photography. Then again, I could be wrong. :cool:

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Based on your post (I have no other info) you bought the wrong tool.

 

A photographer, just like a carpenter, or plumber, needs to have a toolbox with many tools, each dedicated to it's purpose. Leica cameras are specific tools and perform their limited functions superbly. outside those limitations they are not very good at all.

 

As a photographer, your first obligation is to recognize your task in hand and choose the appropriate tool for the job. Forgive me if I suggest that you have made a mistake in that possibly you are attempting to use the wrong tool for your designated purpose.

 

I think you will agree that the M240 is very good for 'street photography', but I might suggest a MF camera or larger for serious landscape and astro photography. Then again, I could be wrong. :cool:

 

Thank you for answering. However, I never consider the M as a wrong tool for me. And how unfortunate for me for you to even think this way. I enjoy street shooting, wedding shooting, everyday life shooting, family shooting and landscaping and so on. And the M is still a fantastic tool for all this and I love the manual focusing experience with rangefinders. For me it's simply a body which has few software flaws. But I believe these advantages can be fixxed. If not now, but by next generation when the next M body is released. But nothing is going to happen if everyone on these forums keep saying "You bought the wrong tool!".

 

 

I completely agree with you regarding the limited exposure time for night photography, day work with ND filters, etc. Leica has yet to come up with a good excuse for this pathetic limitation, far worse than the 4 minutes of the M9/Monochrom (which is also too short at times). I note that some FF Nikon & Canon CMOS sensor cameras can have very long exposure times. However, I think some Phase One cameras only have a maximum of 1-2 minutes.

 

I'm not sure whether this is the correct explanation but in a discussion I had some time ago with someone from Leica about this they said it had to do with compromised IQ that Leica didn't want to be responsible for. It was suggested that there may be a firmware option in the future for users who needed longer exposures but that Leica would not be responsible for any compromise to IQ.

 

I don't know if this was correct but nothing came of it. Nevertheless I sorely miss the option of long exposures and consider it the major drawback of this otherwise great camera.

 

I wish there was a way to know more what they meant by "compromised IQ". Judging by the new Leica T with the same limitations, is it simply Leica's philosophy to not tolerate hot pixels in images?

Edited by Tmuussoni
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The reasons are very simple. When a product is developed there are design decisions taken along the way, and these are implemented in the final product. It is up to the customer to research the product and make a buying decision. Complaining aterwards is not very fruitful.

I would advise you to enjoy the camera for what it is (no hard task) and get the proper tool for your landscapes.

The A7R does not appear the optimum tool to me, Erl's suggestion seems more appropriate, or even an XPan and a stock of film.

 

\

No camera is perfect no matter what the price was. And everyone will use the tools we have as best of their abilities. And sure, I was aware of the issues. Obviously I have no choise now but to change my shooting style according to the tools which are possible. It's still the best camera I ever had and a camera I truly love to own.

 

However, your answer is not helpfull at all. I kinda expected this kind of answer. But there is no need to be so judgemental and defensive here. All I am trying to do is get answers here. Despite my forum search I could not find any real answers about the reasons. It would be the best for all consumers, myself included, to notify Leica about these disadvantages. I am an optimistic and I think there is always hope for a future firmware updates. But only if us, as the customers, are loud enough about these issues. Nothing is going to happen, if we don't speak about it.

 

And since the problem exists also on the new T body, I am even more curious about the reasoning to omit buld mode.

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The reasons are very simple. When a product is developed there are design decisions taken along the way, and these are implemented in the final product. It is up to the customer to research the product and make a buying decision. Complaining aterwards is not very fruitful.

I would advise you to enjoy the camera for what it is (no hard task) and get the proper tool for your landscapes.

The A7R does not appear the optimum tool to me, Erl's suggestion seems more appropriate, or even an XPan and a stock of film.

 

\

 

I appreciate you taking the time to answer me. And I realize you are not particularly interested in the subject in the hand. And that is fine. I simply want to be little more constructive here. I am saying is there are plenty of examples design decisions on the final product changed afterwards by firmware updates. Fuji is great example here, the way they have listened to customers is admirable. I still think Leica is capable of similar decisions. Despite them beeing a relatively small company in the industry. So since I do not know any Leica executives, I think this forum is the best place to bring out such concerns/issues to daylight. At least I would hope the next generation M body would have a full support for bulb mode.

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Hi Jaap and Erl, I disagree with you here. I do not believe that the limited long exposure of the M240 is acceptable, not that there's much I can do about it.. For me it is an extremely versatile camera and not the wrong tool for almost any other 'job' that I use it for and I should not have to require a second camera or camera system simply to make a long exposure.

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Well, Leica has already answered the moving focus point question. They tried to implement it, but it turned out not to be technically possible.

 

Rangefinder framelines. Leica's are as accurate as it gets. As they are mechanical there is not a ghost of a chance that you will get them more SLR-like with the present concept. See the article in the january issue of LFI on the subject. Electronic framelines or a hybrid finder would most likely add to the bulk of the camera.

 

As for astrophotography, well, I think one cannot seriously argue that a Leica M should be suitable for such a limited speciality. Therea re far more suitable solutions on the market., and one thing I would like to see solved if possible. Given that the M240 had overheating problems initially, there might be a good reason. Maybe a subject for a next LFI?

Edited by jaapv
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I wish there was a way to know more what they meant by "compromised IQ". Judging by the new Leica T with the same limitations, is it simply Leica's philosophy to not tolerate hot pixels in images?

 

I think that this is the correct interpretation of their decision which has unfortunately led to this compromise of reduced exposure length.

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In support of the OP I find the M240 a great landscape tool

 

Exposures longer then a minute are unusual for landscapes though. Not a limitation for me, even on night shots.

Not for astro-photography where I presume a Canon 60Da is a better tool ?

 

- One minute maximum exposure = It's a disgrace to even call it bulb mode

Perhaps Leica implemented this to protect the sensor ??? I am sure a software fix is easy

- No way to turn off LENR (Long exposure noise reduction) = practical disadvantage: try shooting fireworks when the guy next to you is going to get twice as many shots as you are

I agree this would be useful. Also a simple software fix

- Inability to move the focus point on live view when zoomed in

This can be done in software. However for landscape or astro photography the lens should be closed down so not sure why this is a major issue as focus and recompose could be used.

 

rgds

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I have no issues with respect to the lack of moveable focus point, or the framelines, or the camera's otherwise inappropriateness for highly specialised work such as astrophotography. There is a good review somewhere regarding the use of the Sony A7 iterations and their excellent results for astrophotography.

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Qualification of my comments:

I do not have an M240, so clearly I am limited in my scope of comment. However I know enough to say it must be a great camera, in the right hands, for street, wedding and even landscape photography, and much more.

 

The thrust of my earlier comments was concerning the choice of the M240 for the specific purposes the OP declared it inadequate for. I accept the criticism of the cameras useability as explained, but fail to see why one would buy the camera for this purpose, knowing its shortcomings. Hence my recommendation of other cameras as a supplement to cover those shortfalls. rarely does 'one camera do it all'. That's all I was trying to say. Later firmware 'fixes' may be possible, but don't commit to the camera hoping so!

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It won't activate the sensor in sensor cleaning, so no image.

Hi jaapv.

 

Yes, sorry. I just realised this as I finished typing. Silly of me, I know.

I went back to amend my post but you had already beaten me to it!

 

Surely there must be a way to turn a screw with a hammer?!...

 

:-)

 

Carry On!

 

Philip.

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Thank you for answering. However, I never consider the M as a wrong tool for me. And how unfortunate for me for you to even think this way. I enjoy street shooting, wedding shooting, everyday life shooting, family shooting and landscaping and so on. And the M is still a fantastic tool for all this and I love the manual focusing experience with rangefinders. For me it's simply a body which has few software flaws. But I believe these advantages can be fixxed. If not now, but by next generation when the next M body is released. But nothing is going to happen if everyone on these forums keep saying "You bought the wrong tool!".

 

 

 

 

I wish there was a way to know more what they meant by "compromised IQ". Judging by the new Leica T with the same limitations, is it simply Leica's philosophy to not tolerate hot pixels in images?

 

I think you have made some very valid points and its unfortunate that you have received such negative responses. I see no reason why is should not be possible to offer a longer exposure on bulb and have the option to disable noise reduction. As for the ability to change the focus point in live view, this I'd image would be more difficult. I find most of my landscape shots to be around the infinity mark, so this doesn't seem to bother me so much. I'd much rather use my M than my old Nikon D3s for landscapes. Can't be doing with all that weight anymore.

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I do think they are limitations, but I never do long exposures, so don't miss it, also I never do Astrophotgraphy or firework photos... I do agree with some short comings but they all have to do with extra options I rarely use.

 

For me the most important things are:

Rangefinder

M mount

 

All the other extra's are fun, but I rarely use them, If I were to do astrophotography or long exposures, I wouldn't have bought the Leica M.

 

 

It seems it's just not the camera for you... I mean you've bought a Leica M not some Nikon... if you want features stay away from Leica please.

Edited by jip
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