400mm f6.8 telyt focusing?

[Firefly]

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Hi everyone, I have seen various 400mm 6.8 telyt-v boxed with a shoulder rest etc, do these go straight onto a Viso iii housing and focus or do you need additionally what is known as a televit? many thanks Rob

[zeitz]

The 400mm f6.8 and 560mm f6.8 mount directly to a slide focusing mount and then directly to Visoflex II or III. To save money you could buy the two lens heads but only one focusing slide. Many people, including me, don't like slide focusing with the 560 mm f6.8. Apparently a really good clean and lube of the slider makes the situation much better. Both of these heads were also available from Novoflex for use on the PIGRIFF-C and PIGRIFF-D. Modifications of these C and D focusing mounts is needed to focus to infinity on the Visoflex II and III. I really like the PIGRIFF systems. But good luck finding the parts.

 

The 400mm f5.6 and 560 f5.6 use the Televit focusing mount. It is a please to use having a fine focusing thumb wheel. You need the Visoflex Televit, not the R Televit. The 280mm f4.8 and 400mm f5 lens heads could also be used on the Televit. The 14138 adapter is extremely hard to find. The 400mm f5 on Televit is my favorite telephoto lens for Visoflex. The 400mm and 560mm f5.6 and f6.8 lenses are not true telephotos. They are long focus achromats. I find them too long and unwieldy.

 

In the end it is a matter of personal taste.

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[fotoism]

I have all four lens heads and both the V-Televit (for M bodies) ,and R-Televit (for R bodies), and I too like the focusing of the Televit more than the sliding 400/560 f/6.8 versions. The push-pull for fast rough focusing then the thumb knob for fine tuning make things much more precise. However, the f/5.6 pair are more suitable when you have support (monopod or tripod...etc.) due to their bulk and weight whereas I was able to hand-hold the f/6.8 combos and got good results. I found that without support the shoulder stock does not help me much. Personal thing I guess.

[zeitz]

It's a shame Leica never made adapters to use the f6.8 Telyts on the Televit. The 6.8s were supposedly better optical performers than the F5.6 Telyts.

[k-hawinkler]

Telyt 400 & 560 mm f/6.8 Focusing

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-collectors-historica/254586-telyt-400-560-mm-f-6-a.html

[luigi bertolotti]

It's a shame Leica never made adapters to use the f6.8 Telyts on the Televit. The 6.8s were supposedly better optical performers than the F5.6 Telyts.

 

Really it is... being me in contact with a good machining shop, able to make finely machined threads, I even played with the idea of a do-it-yourself aluminium tube... ... but the diaphragm issue looks a defintive obstacle : or you make a direct tube from 6,8 lenshead to Televit with 14138, RENOUNCING to the diaphragm, or you use the Televit diaphragm unit and make a shorter tube from 6,8 lenshead to it... but no guarantee that the diaphragm is correctly positioned along the optical path...

Edited December 14, 2014 by luigi bertolotti

[bocaburger]

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Apparently a really good clean and lube of the slider makes the situation much better.

 

Absolutely. My 400/6.8 was ok but fine-focusing was too jerky. DAG told me how to take it apart (need to unscrew the front part with the glass elements in it), clean the rails and channels, and use a minimal coating of moly lube (I got some at a bicycle repair shop). The improvement was huge and now I can fine-focus with precision. I emphasized minimal on the lube, and I mean one blob about 3mm diameter at the head of each rail and then work it in and out. Any more lube than that and it would be overly stiff.

Edited December 14, 2014 by bocaburger

[jaapv]

The 400mm f6.8 and 560mm f6.8 mount directly to a slide focusing mount and then directly to Visoflex II or III. To save money you could buy the two lens heads but only one focusing slide. Many people, including me, don't like slide focusing with the 560 mm f6.8. Apparently a really good clean and lube of the slider makes the situation much better. Both of these heads were also available from Novoflex for use on the PIGRIFF-C and PIGRIFF-D. Modifications of these C and D focusing mounts is needed to focus to infinity on the Visoflex II and III. I really like the PIGRIFF systems. But good luck finding the parts.

 

The 400mm f5.6 and 560 f5.6 use the Televit focusing mount. It is a please to use having a fine focusing thumb wheel. You need the Visoflex Televit, not the R Televit. The 280mm f4.8 and 400mm f5 lens heads could also be used on the Televit. The 14138 adapter is extremely hard to find. The 400mm f5 on Televit is my favorite telephoto lens for Visoflex. The 400mm and 560mm f5.6 and f6.8 lenses are not true telephotos. They are long focus achromats. I find them too long and unwieldy.

 

In the end it is a matter of personal taste.

 

It is not very hard to convert an R Televit to a Visoflex one.

Will van Manen did it for me.

[zeitz]

Luigi, you got me thinking. The 400/560mm 6.8 Telyts really are thin achromat cemented pairs of glass that are mounted in several way to focus and control the light. Being achromats the diaphragm must be external to the lens. (The actual section holding the glass of the Telyts is thin and can be unscrewed for cleaning of the inside glass surface. This is the actual lens head.) The position of the diaphragm shouldn't be that critical in my thinking.

 

The 400/560mm 6.8 Telyts could be bought in three ways: the slide V & R mounts and tube which is the subject of this string; the Novoflex Leica R rapid focus mount; and directly from Novoflex for use on the Super-rapid Follow Focus C and D systems (PIGRIFF-C and -D), adaptable to nearly all SLRs. Ignoring all the tube, adapter, diaphragm, and focusing paranoia, the actual 400/560mm 6.8 Telyt heads are identical and interchangeable in all cases.

 

So I got out my ruler to find out where the diaphragm actually is in each case. For the Leica slide mount system, both 400m and 560mm, it is about 260mm from the focal plane. For the Novoflex Leica R it is about 320mm from the focal plane. As one might expect, for the PIGRIFF-C it is identical at about 320mm. The diaphragm on the Televit with the aperture unit attached is about 265mm from the focal plane.

 

My conclusion is that the actual lens head sections of 400/560mm could be adapted to the Televit. The easiest way to do it would be to use the adapter tubes from the Novoflex mounts. I need to stop buying camera equipment and buy a lathe.

 

For completeness of the discussion the Novoflex Leica R rapid focusing system is neither a PIGRIFF-C nor a PIGRIFF-D. The Leica PIGRIFF has the near focusing system of the PIGRIFF-C. The lens mounting system (breech) is that of the PIGRIFF-D. The Leica R camera mount is not removable from the Leica PIGRIFF.

[zeitz]

I made a mistake. I measured the PIGRIFF systems at closest focusing distance, not at the infinity position. The difference is 28mm. So the diaphragm location of the Novoflex Leica R and Novoflex PIGRIFF is about 292mm.

 

The other thing I noticed is that the diaphragm on the sliding Telyt system does not move when the lens is focused. This is another indication that the location of the diaphragm is not critical.

[luigi bertolotti]

AHA !!! Thanks, Zeitz... you did the measurements I did not at those times (it was just an idea... I quickly thought "there is the issue of the diaph positioning..." and didn't go further, without verifications on the devices) : but if your measurements are correct (I believe they are) let's say that CAN BE DONE : if the distance diaphragm - focus plane is 260mm on the "classic" Telyt f 6,8 mount, and 265mm on the Televit for Viso ... whatever is the impact ( ) it is SURELY immaterial in practice... I mean : in a similar long-focus design (my Telyt S 800mm) the diaphragm is NOT at a fixed distance from the focus plane (the focusing slider mechanism is BETWEEN diaphragm and flange) .. so clearly, a difference in the above distance has no practical effect... right ?

 

So... just a matter to design the RIGHT tube (possibly with a decent shape.... conical ? Which are the 2 diameters ? or cilyndrical with a step ?) and have it machined... and finished with the right hue... (with aluminium.... I wouldn't suggest a black paint... it would be impossible to match exactly the original black of the lenshead... better to make it in a different but discrete color...a medium gray or even very dark green... )

Edited December 15, 2014 by luigi bertolotti

[zeitz]

Luigi, I believe the diaphragm distance is immaterial, as long it is relatively in the center of the optical path and not close to either the focal plane or the rear glass surface.

 

The diameter of the f6.8 Telyts is smaller than the diameter of the Televit. I think a cone-shaped adapter would look odd. So a step-down ring on the diaphragm unit and a simple tube would probably be best. I would use very flat black paint inside the tube. I would cover the outside with a leather similar to that on the 560mm lens hood.

 

Note that on the Novoflex lens head, the 560mm uses all Leica parts with a simple tube to position the lens correctly. That tube was available separately and the 560mm head from the Leica set connected directly. The 400mm head from Novoflex fits inside a fairly complex adapter and includes a lens hood made by Novoflex, not the Leica lens hood. This complex adapter results in the diameter being the same as the 560mm.

 

Since the Televit with the diaphragm unit is so much shorter than the PIGRIFF, you should have no trouble fitting the 400mm without needing a complex adapter. So two tubes and two step down rings, one pair for 400mm and one pair for 560mm.

[luigi bertolotti]

Good idea, the leather... for the mechanics, do you have a good workshop around ? For instance, I think that labs specialized for amateur astronomy (I know some) can be trustable providers for such devices.

[zeitz]

I do not. In my region of the US it is very hard to find a machine shop that will do small jobs. Machinists are in short supply so they can concentrate on large production jobs. In the old days, Norm Goldberg (DAG's dad) in Wisconsin or Professional Camera Repair in New York would gladly want this challenge. The place I would recommend today is SK Grimes on the East Coast. They claim they will make any adapter and have an excellent reputation.

[nikea]

For completeness of the discussion the Novoflex Leica R rapid focusing system is neither a PIGRIFF-C nor a PIGRIFF-D. The Leica PIGRIFF has the near focusing system of the PIGRIFF-C. The lens mounting system (breech) is that of the PIGRIFF-D. The Leica R camera mount is not removable from the Leica PIGRIFF.

 

I have the Leica R version of the Novoflex with the Telyt 560/6,8 head. The focusing system is as you say a hybrid of PIGRIFF-C and PIGRIFF-D. However, my version has the system for interchangeable camera mounts. It would be nice to have the PIGRIFF-D with the additional rack and pinion focusing system, or the very rare TUBUS-D, which is meant for tripod use.

[zeitz]

I'm doing this from memory as I can't get to my equipment right now.

 

The focusing is the same on the PIGRIFF-C and Novoflex Leica R, including the close-up facility. What is different on the Novoflex Leica and the PIGRIFF-D, compared to the PIGRIFF-C, is that the lens heads bayonet on and off instead of screw on and off. Also the aperture unit (PIFAS) is not removable on PIGRIFF-D and Novoflex Leica R. PIGRIFF-D seems to be extremely rare as the price was 1200 euros just for the PIGRIFF-D, without lens heads. It must have been a hard sell at the time when faster aperture, autofocus lenses were available from Nikon and Canon.

 

The extra piece of kit for PIGRIFF-D and Novoflex Leica R is the D-ring. Remove the D-ring from the lens head and it screw onto a PIGRIFF-C aperture unit. Add a D-ring to a PIGRIFF-C lens head and it will mount on PIGRIFF-D and Novoflex Leica R.

 

Nikea, I'm guessing you have a normal PIGRIFF-C with a Leica R adapter and the 400mm f6.8 lens head, as sold by Novoflex.

[nikea]

Nikea, I'm guessing you have a normal PIGRIFF-C with a Leica R adapter and the 400mm f6.8 lens head, as sold by Novoflex.

 

My PIGRIFF is identical to the Leica version with the non-removal aperture part and the new bayonnet attachment system of the lens like in the PIGRIFF-D (not compatible with the PIGRIFF-C). The only difference from your description of the Leica version, is that I do not have the fixed Leica R mount, but the system with interchangeable camera mount rings. It is covered with the original green Novoflex lens coating, so without peeling it off, I cannot see the Leica inscription. My system came with the Telyt 560/6.8 and the T-Novoflexar 400/5.6 heads.

[nikea]

My PIGRIFF is identical to the Leica version with the non-removal aperture part and the new bayonnet attachment system of the lens like in the PIGRIFF-D (not compatible with the PIGRIFF-C). The only difference from your description of the Leica version, is that I do not have the fixed Leica R mount, but the system with interchangeable camera mount rings. It is covered with the original green Novoflex lens coating, so without peeling it off, I cannot see the Leica inscription. My system came with the Telyt 560/6.8 and the T-Novoflexar 400/5.6 heads.

 

Just a correction: By closer inspection, I found that the part with the aperture is actually removable. This part is compatible with a PIGRIFF-C at the end of the focusing unit and with the D-bayonet at the other end. Could this be the so-called D-ring? Both my lens heads have the D-bayonet.

Edited December 24, 2014 by nikea

[nikea]

Just a correction: By closer inspection, I found that the part with the aperture is actually removable. This part is compatible with a PIGRIFF-C at the end of the focusing unit and with the D-bayonet at the other end. Could this be the so-called D-ring? Both my lens heads have the D-bayonet.

 

Here is a picture of the lens with a Nikon D800 mounted on a Manfrotto "gimbal" head on a Gitzo tripod.

 

Maybe my aperture unit is a PIFAS-C factory-modified to be compatible with the lens heads D-400/3 and D-560/L? According to a copy of an advertisement for the D-system, the D-RING (as was mentioned in the post by "zeitz" above) adapts older lens heads for use on PIGRIFF-D, so the lens end of my aperture unit is not a D-RING.

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Edited December 24, 2014 by nikea
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[zeitz]

This looks like a PIGRIFF-D because the close up control is not on the left side. It is easier to tell from the right side. As I recall, and I can't get to my equipment right now, the lock for the close-up slide is on the left side of the PIGRIFF-C and on the right side of the PIGRIFF-D. I do not have a PIGRIFF-D, so I may not understand some of its details and I could be wrong. I have a couple PIGRIFF, PIGRIFF-B, and PIGRIFF-C and the Novoflex Leica R.

 

The D- ring is a thin, may 6mm thick, round maybe about 50mm, adapter that has a male thread on one side (lens side) and a three tab bayonet on the other side (PIFAS side).