M8 - Motorcycles & Vibration Resistance

[Jager]

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As with many on the forum, here, my M8 has pretty much entirely eclipsed use of my DSLR's. Between the image quality and the ergonomics of the M8, I've simply not found a good reason to pick up either of my Nikons since the new Leica came home.

 

I also am a serious motorcyclist, usually turning 15-20K miles per year. Whether I am on a simple several-hour day ride, or a week-long trip, I invariably carry at least one good camera with me. In years past that was an SLR/DSLR. But given my absolute preference for the M8 now, that's what I'd like to use.

 

My first few rides this year have me worrrying about durability and vibration resistance when subjected to long miles, however. Motorcycles inherently produce more vibration than do automobiles (with a very few exceptions). And I can't seem to avoid the nagging sense that I'm hurting my M8 and lenses. I believe, for instance, that Sean had an issue a while back with a CV lens that came apart after spending some time on his bike.

 

I have several bikes, but the two that I turn most miles with are a K1200RS and a R1200GS. I'm not really worried about the KRS - that is an exceptionally smooth motorcycle. But the R1200GS is a twin and produces significantly more vibration. And that's the one I most take on trips these days.

 

My camera gear is always carried either in one of the saddlebags (if on a day trip); or in a tankbag (all overnight trips). In both cases they are reasonably well-padded. But I'm not convinced that padding does a great job of attenuating constant vibration.

 

Thoughts? Am I being overly anal in worrying about this?

 

TIA.

 

Jeff

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Jeff sounds like foam inserts in the bag maybe a good solution, since foam should absorb most of the vibration. Not sure vibration would be a issue with a M8 but it certainly can't help it like anything else. I would think about some dampening in the bag than insert your camera bag in that. I would also use foam that is not so stiff but more on the squeezy side. I think that would absorb vibrations better. Great question

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[bsmith]

There's a lot of vibration in airplane overhead compartments, I don't think a motorcycle would be much worse. Have carried mine on my harley a lot

[scjohn]

Jager

 

I would worry. I needed to send my M7 in for repair after tossing into my saddlebag. The M8 would appear less robust.

 

I hope the foam insert idea will work because I like you need to ride and now need to take the M8 along.

 

Let me know how it turns out

[hammam]

I am awaiting the delivery of my new BMW F 800 in a couple of weeks, and that's a twin cylinder bike, so I was asking myself the exact same question. I guess that carrying the camera and lenses on yourself, in a backpack or bag slung across the shoulder, instead of directly in contact with the bike, like in a tank bag or side case, would help dampen the vibrations. Don't you think?

[grantray]

The best solution is to get a hard-case backpack, (there are a couple of good ones to choose from), and put your gear in padding inside the backpack. This will create the greatest seperation of chassis vibration from your gear. It's also the best way to protect your equipment, as even hardcase saddlebags are still connected directly to the frame. You can even line the backpackpack with velcro to better enable compartmentalization. And just so you know, I used to handle creative direction for Confederate Motorcycles down in New Orleans before the hurricane, so I know about vibrations from a big twin engine. Have fun.

 

-grant

[andyturk]

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I've got no specific experience with the M8 on a bike (yet), but have carried cameras for years while riding.

 

Personally, I would never put a camera body in a saddlebag. The vibration takes a definite toll and I've done serious damage to a Canon DSLR and a nice lens because of it. It was a bit extreme, a hard off-road ride through Death Valley on my 1150 GS, but my nice 28-70L Canon zoom broke internally and the camera suffered electronic problems that I could never fix.

 

Interestingly, I did have a LowePro bag around my waist come unbuckled at about 90mph and happened to see it tumble in the rear view mirror. I went back to retrieve it and was sure that the gear was trash. The bag was scuffed all over and had even melted in a couple of places from the heat of friction. Amazingly, the camera was just fine and worked perfectly for years afterwards. I think the LowePro bag did an excellent job but that luck was a major factor.

 

Now I carry my camera (Epson R-D1) in a knapsack so that my back and shoulders act as a shock absorber. The Epson's rangefinder still goes out from time to time, but I suspect that the M8 is a little more sturdy. If necessary, I'd trust an M-mount lens in a saddlebag, but never mated to a body. In contrast to my old Canon glass, the M-mount stuff has no electronics and very few moving parts. I think they'd do pretty well if protected by a neoprene pouch and wrapped in something soft.

[sean_reid]

The CV 35 Pancake II did come loose (presumably due to vibration but I'm not sure) but its the only lens or camera I've had a problem with. I also run a motorcycle touring company and have been carrying various cameras in my K12LT trunk for years. The equipment, in a padded bag or case, should be fine in a topcase on the K1200RS but you're right about the GS and vibration (although that tends to lessen at about 30K).

 

I also teach riding, when I have time, and what I don't like about the backpack idea is that the case would come with your body in a crash. I carry no hard objects in my riding gear at all and still recall a client who broke a rib when he crashed with a cell phone in his pocket. The M8 may be fine on the GS but I'd recommend dense foam for sure. Do you have a trunk on the rack?

 

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[Jager]

There's no question in my mind that a backpack-type solution would work - the body works as a wonderful shock absorber. But for a number of reasons - comfort, convenience, safety - that's simply non-starter for me. Even when I'm riding my sportbike (GSX-R1000), I always carry a tailpack rather than having to wear anything.

 

Sean, yep, your K12LT is the same basic design as my K12RS. The rubber-mounted frame of the K12 is exceptionally smooth - to the point that it's probably not very representative of most bikes out there.

 

My R1200GS is actually fairly smooth when simply cruising at, say, 4000 rpm. But if you start running at higher rpms, either because you're simply going faster or because you're aggressively working a winding road, vibrations increase quite a bit.

 

Anyone know of a portable (and affordable) device able to accurately measure vibration?

 

Jeff

[robsteve]

Jef:

 

When I did a long trip on my motorcycle a few years back, the Leica Ms I brought went in a tank bag. The cameras were in a billingham bag and this went into a tank bag wich I put an extra piece of foam into. The Billingham sat on the foam.

 

I think the tank bag is the best option as the tanks on most motorcycles are rubber mounted and have a bit of built in damping. I would avoid putting them in the hard bags or a tail trunk. These not usually rubber mounted and also are closer to the wheel vibration than a tank mounted bag.

 

Robert

[Skippy Sanchez]

... But if you start running at higher rpms, either because you're simply going faster or because you're aggressively working a winding road, vibrations increase quite a bit.

Jeff

 

Jeff, I think it has less to do with increasing RPMs and more to do with the harmonics at certain RPM points.

 

An aeronautical engineer explained to me that as any engine passes specific points in RPMs, vibrations are transfered throughout various components of the vehicle, causing them to vibrate as well, until the point is either passed or backed off.

 

Because everything on the chassis is vibrating at different wavelengths (like guitar strings do as they're 'shortened' on the fretboard), at certain RPMs sympathetic harmonics are created that will cause noticible vibration. Sometimes these points are very narrow 'peaks', some may span several hundred RPMs.

 

My shovelhead Harley, for instance is real smooth at 0 RPM, and gets worse as the engine speed increases. It just begins to smooth back out at about 4,500.

 

There is equipment that aeronautical engineers use to measure these peaks on static-mounted engines so wings won't fall off airplanes during flight, but I don't know of anything you could find at Harbor Freight Tools that measures vibration.

 

Me, I use my butt.

[scjohn]

My shovelhead Harley, for instance is real smooth at 0 RPM

 

Yes, my Harley is real smooth at 0 RPM's too... and luckily that's the typical RPM while I'm shooting!

[truando]

no problems on my rides so far, even when riding with one hand and shooting the m8 with the other as on this photo.

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[sean_reid]

Jef:

 

When I did a long trip on my motorcycle a few years back, the Leica Ms I brought went in a tank bag. The cameras were in a billingham bag and this went into a tank bag wich I put an extra piece of foam into. The Billingham sat on the foam.

 

I think the tank bag is the best option as the tanks on most motorcycles are rubber mounted and have a bit of built in damping. I would avoid putting them in the hard bags or a tail trunk. These not usually rubber mounted and also are closer to the wheel vibration than a tank mounted bag.

 

Robert

 

That's an interesting thought. I know photographers who've cut foam to make their tank bags into custom camera cases.

 

Jeff, it might be good to ride the GS and hold your left hand on the tank when you can to see how much vibration is getting to it (or maybe you can tell with your knees). It might be one of the more isolated parts of the bike although security might be an issue.

 

Some argue that only soft things should go into the tank bag but then the tank itself, bars, instruments, they're all hard too <G>

 

As for the trunk being a bad location Rob...I've been carrying various cameras and lenses in my LT trunk for the past 102,000 miles or so (often within a few miles of your house actually) and the only problem I've ever seen was with that 35 Pancake II (and I'm not even sure if I can blame that on the bike). They've always been in padded cases though and the bike is smooth. Thank goodness for a good suspension because NS still needs to put a few more looneys into repaving.

 

If it were my GS, I'd probably put a Givi trunk or something like that on and build custom foam for the equipment. I don't like to leave camera equipment in anything I can't lock.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[andyturk]

I also teach riding, when I have time, and what I don't like about the backpack idea is that the case would come with your body in a crash. I carry no hard objects in my riding gear at all and still recall a client who broke a rib when he crashed with a cell phone in his pocket. The M8 may be fine on the GS but I'd recommend dense foam for sure. Do you have a trunk on the rack?

Sean,

 

When I blew up my D30, I think it was the twenty miles of washboard that I was riding over rather than the vibration of the boxer engine. I had a topcase on the bike and a nice LowePro bag that seemed to cushion everything nicely. Even so, I stopped to take a shot and found the front lens element dangling.

 

If you're not going off-road, your gear may be OK in a hard case. My knapsack goes over the armor in my jacket (Rukka) so I'm not completely unprotected there. But it's a reasonable point. Carrying pens, keys or other hard objects inside a jacket can be a real problem.

[Jager]

Jeff, it might be good to ride the GS and hold your left hand on the tank when you can to see how much vibration is getting to it (or maybe you can tell with your knees). It might be one of the more isolated parts of the bike although security might be an issue.

 

Sean

 

 

Over the years I've actually used my hand many times to touch various points of the bike to try and gauge relative vibration levels. I long ago concluded that the gas tank is almost always the smoothest part of a bike - often by a considerable margin. That's why a tank bag is my preferred location for sensitive equipment on any long ride. That does raise potential security issues when off the bike, of course, but I solve those by either taking my camera with me or by taking the whole tank bag.

 

The seat is usually the next smoothest, in my experience - which is why a tail pack strapped to the passenger seat often works well for those who like that sort of thing. I generally don't, much preferring hard luggage.

 

I'd agree with the comments about saddlebags not being ideal locations with respect to vibration isolation. And tail trunks, being suspended high and aft of the rear wheel, are the worst of all. That probably doesn't make much difference in an extremely smooth motorcycle like a (previous generation) K12 or a Goldwing. But those bikes are the exceptions. I wouldn't carry sensitive gear in the tail trunk of most bikes.

 

On day rides, where I don't want to hassle with a tank bag, I'll simply place my A&A bag (with its inherent padding) in the right saddlebag (side away from the exhaust pipe). I remain comfortable with doing that on my K1200RS. But I still have misgivings about doing that on my R1200GS.

 

Mostly, I'm concerned with longer trips, since those are the ones I most would like to record photographically. If the conclusion ended up being that the gas tank is the only viable location, I'd be fine with that since that's a manageable situation. My angst continues around the question of whether even that is acceptable on anything other than the very smoothest motorcycles out there. I dunno.

 

I certainly recognize that some amount of vibration is inherent to much of what we do, often without us even being aware of it. I've carried an M camera to work with me every day for the last several years (previously my M7; now my M8) in a Domke F-803 Satchel. Touch the passenger seat in my Honda Civic, upon which that Domke bag sits, and you can clearly feel a constant, albeit mild, vibration. If I drive my Toyota pickup, that vibrates a bit more. And the metro train which I ride every day has some vibration. But, rightly or wrongly, I've rationalized that all those fall beneath the threshold at which measurable/predictable equipment deterioration would begin.

 

If I flew frequently, I'd worry about that - aircraft frames typically transmit considerable vibration. But I only fly occasionally and so that's not a concern.

 

I'm not particularly worried about the one-time effects from a single trip. If I were contemplating a 3-week cross-country excursion to California, I'd carry my M8 and lenses and wouldn't give it a second thought. I'm not even unduly worried about an entire season of riding. What does worry me are the cumulative effect of subjecting my gear to pervasive vibration over many months and years. I spend a lot of time on motorcycles.

 

The irony is that although I've certainly given this topic a lot of thought over the years - certainly this is not the first time I've ever considered how and where to carry expensive camera gear - this is the first time I've really anguished over it.

 

Gotta love that M8... ;-)

[geoffreyg]

Vibration is, as we all know, a tricky thing. There is measuring it (amplitude, frequency), there is the issue of duration, and finally, resonance.

 

We don't know the resonance for a camera, and in fact, there will be many different ones. It is likely that sometime over a long duration on a bike, somehow it will match up with the bike vibrations. Maybe a wee bit, maybe a lot. But it doesn't take a lot to do some modest and internal damage.

 

People are correct in noting that the resonance on a bike will vary enormously. The bike will vibrate differently at different places, times, and speeds. So too, where the item is located, and its own internal natural frequencies impacts this.

 

One of the issues with cameras on bikes is that there are lots of small bits in a camera, and the bike vibration has a lovely tendency to "loosen" up these connections. Which ones, in what way, no one really knows. It depends on the bike, how its mounted, how long, etc.

 

Its probably the case for a short time, vibration from the bike is probably no big deal. We take cameras on planes, cars, etc, but then again, the buzzing on a bike is more directly effective to a camera than it would be on a plane in an overhead compartment. Of course, what do we mean by short? Who knows? One person's 15 minutes is another persons weekly commute.

 

Overall, The safest is to minimize any or all of the connections of the camera to the bike. Break the linkage of the vibration to the camera. Isolation helps here - but it really should be isolated. To do this, carrying the camera on the body is the best place but its not the safest for the body in the event of a crash. The tank bag is probably next best location, but the camera should be wrapped in a couple of different layers of foam (each will stop different vibration frequencies). If teh side bags are rubber mounted, then the same thing might hold true there as well. More layers of packing to make more isolation will help, but the last layer of protection should aim toward isolating or "floating" the camera as best as you can from the bike.

 

Imagine the camera as a fine pocketwatch. Pack it accordingly!

 

All in all - a little trip here and there, or even a week long trip carefully packed probably won't do damage. But imagine a mechanical entity on a month long ride - and that vibration will probably do something somewhere. If one could see all the places, and tighten them up, it wouldn't be a worry. But like an old pocket watch, its hard to see what is loosening up.

 

Geoff

[GlobeRiders]

Hello

 

As I write this I am on a motorcycle tour from Istanbul, Turkey, to Xian, China, following the Silk Road. I am riding a BMW R1200 GS Adventure. After removing the passenger seat I use a Think Tank camera back pack, http://thinktankphoto.com/ttp_product_ArprtAddctd.php to carry all of my Canon Eos cameras. My new M8 is carried on a waist pack on my body at all times. Yes, I agree that this is not the safest in case of an accident, but so is life at times, we have to take some chances. I did brake a couple of ribs on a South America ride because of a camera on my chest pocket when I crashed so I know what this can imply.

 

I have motorcycled to over 100 countries and made my living taking pictures always carrying camera gear on the bike. My best solution has been to purchase pro cameras and lenses and carry this in a backpack that is mounted behind me on the bike. This way the cushioning from the backpack and in some cases the saddle will help to dampen the vibrations.

 

Only once did I have a lens come apart, but that was on a off-road trip last fall from Canada to Mexico riding 2,500 miles on a BMW HP2. It was a very tough tour and I blame myself for being careless in the way I took care of the equipment.

 

I am loving my new M8 even though I were not able to get any IR filter before I left so I am suffering from strange colors on some riding suits etc. Having the camera in my waist pack at all times make it easy to get the street shots and people pictures that I love to shoot.

 

You can follow our journey at our Live!Journal as we keep riding East http://www.globeriders.com/live!journal_main_pages/live!journal_main.shtml

 

Happy Riding and shooting to you all with greetings from Tbilisi, Georgia.

 

Helge Pedersen

[sean_reid]

One of the reasons that I switched from R bikes to K bikes (first a K75 that I converted to a K75RS) is that the lack of vibration is easier on both me and the photographic equipment. It sounds like your best bet is a using the tankbag (with a couple kinds of foam inside) and then just carrying it with you when you leave the bike. The other advantage of having the camera in the tankbag, which I used to do with my /6 and RT, is that one can reach it without getting off the bike - handy for pictures where one just pulls off the road for a moment (as in everywhere on the Cabot Trail). If the bag converts to a back pack, so much the better.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

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[sean_reid]

Hello

 

As I write this I am on a motorcycle tour from Istanbul, Turkey, to Xian, China, following the Silk Road. I am riding a BMW R1200 GS Adventure. After removing the passenger seat I use a Think Tank camera back pack, Professional photography equipment - camera bags, camera cases - from Think Tank Photo to carry all of my Canon Eos cameras. My new M8 is carried on a waist pack on my body at all times. Yes, I agree that this is not the safest in case of an accident, but so is life at times, we have to take some chances. I did brake a couple of ribs on a South America ride because of a camera on my chest pocket when I crashed so I know what this can imply.

 

I have motorcycled to over 100 countries and made my living taking pictures always carrying camera gear on the bike. My best solution has been to purchase pro cameras and lenses and carry this in a backpack that is mounted behind me on the bike. This way the cushioning from the backpack and in some cases the saddle will help to dampen the vibrations.

 

Only once did I have a lens come apart, but that was on a off-road trip last fall from Canada to Mexico riding 2,500 miles on a BMW HP2. It was a very tough tour and I blame myself for being careless in the way I took care of the equipment.

 

I am loving my new M8 even though I were not able to get any IR filter before I left so I am suffering from strange colors on some riding suits etc. Having the camera in my waist pack at all times make it easy to get the street shots and people pictures that I love to shoot.

 

You can follow our journey at our Live!Journal as we keep riding East GlobeRiders® - Live!Journal - Main Page

 

Happy Riding and shooting to you all with greetings from Tbilisi, Georgia.

 

Helge Pedersen

 

Hello Helge!

 

Welcome to the forum. I meant to e-mail you when you subscribed to RR. Folks, if anyone has experience with cameras on bikes (over all kinds of terrain) it is the famous Helge Pederson. (I'm starting to wonder how much of the motorcycle community is on this site.)

 

Helge's injuries from carrying a camera in his chest pocket is exactly the kind of thing I was talking about above. I've given first aid to several riders who were hurt this way.

 

Helge, what's your experience been with cameras in a tankbag?

 

Cheers,

 

Sean