Torgian Posted June 14, 2014 Share #1 Posted June 14, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) So I'm sure this has been hashed around, but why is there not a good DSLR out there that is similar to a Leica in quality and simplicity? Honestly I think Nikon would have done something better than a Nikon DF... I found it confusing to use, and freaking HUGE. Compared to an film F2 or F3, the thing is a beast. I would buy a new Nikon DSLR if they made something that was the size and shape of a D3, with simple controls, etc. As it is I'm very happy with my Leica 240, but would like a backup camera, and I do like the nikon F3 (which I may end up buying simply to have a film camera around with a 50mm lens). I'm guessing it's just a money/marketing/unable-to-take-risks type of thing for Nikon to make something truly simple and new that has a melancholy feel to it, but is still a great camera to use professionally. Oh, and the reason I say DSLR, is because I'm not a fan at all of the mirror less cameras coming out with EVF. So far, EVFs are not that good (to me at least) and an optical viewfinder beats it. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted June 14, 2014 Posted June 14, 2014 Hi Torgian, Take a look here why no DSLR that is simple? (No, not a Nikon DF). I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Duane Pandorf Posted June 14, 2014 Share #2 Posted June 14, 2014 They're all made by Japanese companies. Just like the P&S cameras, the more options included the better they think. I prefer the KISS principle. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woorob Posted June 14, 2014 Share #3 Posted June 14, 2014 Torgian, There are things that a DSLR can do that the M cannot, yet I was frustrated by the complexity and general lack of user friendliness in the Sony A7r I bought. I sold the Sony and bought a D610. I've owned Nikon SLRs for years but never really clicked with their full frame digital SLRs (I've had a D700, D800 and, most recently, a D610). The D610 I got from Amazon didn't seem like it was brand new, just something off about the box and the way the camera was packaged, so I found a website that tells you how many shutter actuations a camera actually has. My "brand new" D610 had 975! I called Amazon and they were terrific about it. Someone had really abused their return policy. Anyway, about this time my brother had just bought a Canon 6d which he thought was great, so I made the leap from Nikon to Canon and bought a 6D too. I'm sure it's purely a matter of personal taste, but I've found the Canon quite a bit more intuitive to operate than my Nikons. I really like the lenses, the color balance, everything. I'm quite happy with my purchase and have obtained some terrific photographs especially with the 70-300 image-stabilized telephoto. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdriceman Posted June 14, 2014 Share #4 Posted June 14, 2014 I really don't understand these comments. A DSLR can be as simple or as complicated as you want. You want a simple DSLR? Get a Canon - any Canon DSLR - put a Zeiss ZE manual focus lens on it, switch it to manual mode and shoot RAW. The top dial adjusts shutter speed, the rear dial adjusts aperture. Looking through the viewfinder shows all the information you need to know. Changing ISO is easier than on the M and it has auto-ISO in M if you want. If you want to change metering mode or any other parameter you pull up the quick menu and make the change... Honestly it is much easier than going into the M menu structure to change metering mode, bracketing, etc... If you've never used one it takes about 10 minutes with the manual to get this far. Sure, they're big, but they are what they are. And, of course if you want to use AI Servo auto focus at 8 fps on a zoom lens with image stabilization to catch a running gazelle it does get a little more complicated, but then why shouldn't it? 12 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted June 15, 2014 Share #5 Posted June 15, 2014 So I'm sure this has been hashed around, but why is there not a good DSLR out there that is similar to a Leica in quality and simplicity? Well, there almost is one…on steroids (size and price)…it's called the Leica S or S2. (The S2 is now about half original price.) The smaller R version died before birth. Jeff 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
honcho Posted June 15, 2014 Share #6 Posted June 15, 2014 .......I would buy a new Nikon DSLR if they made something that was the size and shape of a D3, with simple controls, etc. As it is I'm very happy with my Leica 240, but would like a backup camera, and I do like the nikon F3 (which I may end up buying simply to have a film camera around with a 50mm lens). I'm guessing it's just a money/marketing/unable-to-take-risks type of thing for Nikon to make something truly simple and new that has a melancholy feel to it, but is still a great camera to use professionally.......... I'm not seeing your logic here. The D3 is larger than the D4 and much larger than the Df. All top end Nikons are very easy to set up for use as straightforward manual cameras. If you have to have a melancholy (?) film camera as 'back up' to your M(240), why not buy a film M body instead of carrying a bag full of unrelated stuff around? 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve P Posted June 15, 2014 Share #7 Posted June 15, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) So I'm sure this has been hashed around, but why is there not a good DSLR out there that is similar to a Leica in quality and simplicity? DSLR's are designed to be a flexible tool that can effectively cover a multitude of shooting scenarios. A greater degree of configurability is needed which inevitably leads to increased complexity. However, once you have it set up to your liking, it becomes pretty straightforward. Will it be the same as the experience of shooting with a Leica M. Not really. Then again, no reason why it should. Vive la difference! 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fotoklaus Posted June 15, 2014 Share #8 Posted June 15, 2014 I think a Nikon FE2 with the Sensor of the D4 would be a Camera, that many people would buy. The Df ist much too big to be "classical" SLR. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted June 15, 2014 Share #9 Posted June 15, 2014 It will take a manufacturer prepared to break with convention. When Olympus brought out the OM1 (M1 originally but Leica objected) most SLRs were large, heavy beasts. Today most dSLRs are suffering feature bloat, so are over featured and have a plethora of buttons and menus many of which are irrelevant for the vast majority of users, but these do beef up the specification sheet which is, I assume, deemed necessary for sales. Perhaps someone needs to build something considerably simpler - more like an M9/E but with a pentaprism - an 'enthusiasts' dSLR in effect (much like Leica could build an digital MP as an 'enthusiast's traditional Leica rngefinder'). The problem for all manufacturers is predicting potential sales versus design and production costs and until a manufacturer actually tries nobody will really know whether sure a venture is going to be profitable or loss making. I have owned 5D2s and used them professionally since they came out, but have as yet still not used all of the menus and certainly not all of the buttons either. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Echo63 Posted June 15, 2014 Share #10 Posted June 15, 2014 Well, there almost is one…on steroids (size and price)…it's called the Leica S or S2. (The S2 is now about half original price.) The smaller R version died before birth. Jeff Oh yes, that one is a beauty I only had a quick, 10min play with one (and a well loved, on its way back to Solms because it was having issues one at that) but it is a very nice camera - A but smaller than the 1DX i use at work, but simple enough i could use it easily after 2 mins of fiddling. The M is similar - very very simple to use. Every DSLR i have used is a bit trickier - too many buttons and menus and stuff - its even worse when you upgrade to the newer model, and half the buttons have been moved. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildlightphoto Posted June 15, 2014 Share #11 Posted June 15, 2014 So I'm sure this has been hashed around, but why is there not a good DSLR out there that is similar to a Leica in quality and simplicity? Because, apart from the S, Leica got out of the DSLR market. Other camera makers use the spec sheet to sell cameras so they can't resist feature bloat. The S, and more recently the T, show how a user interface can be rich, elegant, simple and intuitive. I'd love to use a DSLR body for my R lenses with that kind of user interface thinking. Honestly I think Nikon would have done something better than a Nikon DF... I found it confusing to use, and freaking HUGE. Compared to an film F2 or F3, the thing is a beast. I was disappointed with it too, for the same reasons. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomB_tx Posted June 15, 2014 Share #12 Posted June 15, 2014 The S, and more recently the T, show how a user interface can be rich, elegant, simple and intuitive. "User interface"... While I know cameras have always had controls that could be called such, that term shows how far apart the sides of this discussion are situated. I spent the morning covering a sporting event using my Leicaflex SL and M3 instead of a dSLR and M9 that I used last year. Enjoyed the day much more. Now if I could get an SL or even R4 with a digital sensor I'd order it today. I use my M9 the same as I use an M3 so it's close enough. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralf Posted June 15, 2014 Share #13 Posted June 15, 2014 It is not a DSLR, but have a look at the Fuji XT-1, in spite of it's (excellent) EVF. To me it is a perfect backup to my M9. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildlightphoto Posted June 15, 2014 Share #14 Posted June 15, 2014 ... if I could get an SL ... with a digital sensor I'd order it today. I'd be right there with you. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tobey bilek Posted June 15, 2014 Share #15 Posted June 15, 2014 It can not be simple because controls have necessarily replaced what you bought in the yellow or green box. Add auto focus now demanded by 98%. But you need 12 different kinds to overcome the auto functions foibles. Never forget auto exposure to help the dummies who can not lean to set a camera exposure. Oh wait, that has its own set of problems too. MORE menu items to help you from that morass. In the course of making things simple, they have made things difficult. I walked into the bank Friday and the teller saw a Nikon D7000 around my neck. Sgw said her daughter wants a Nikon. Then she proceeds to tell me Canon takes better pics of dark skinned people and Nikon does better with lighter skinned people. ABSOLUTELY TRUE. I said she was wrong and showed her the exposure compensation button. Then I told her to read the 400 page instruction manual that comes with the camera. So how does a camera manufacturer deal with those kinds and they are in the majority, believe me. Yes turn the dial to M, and bang away. Focus is not assured if you manual focus with the crappy screens in DSLRs. And replacements are for slower lenses, not optimally designed for fast lenses. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildlightphoto Posted June 15, 2014 Share #16 Posted June 15, 2014 It can not be simple because controls have necessarily replaced what you bought in the yellow or green box. Add auto focus now demanded by 98%. But you need 12 different kinds to overcome the auto functions foibles. I'd be satisfied with the kind of complexity seen in the S or T cameras, in a DSLR body. In a perfect world this camera would use R lenses. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdriceman Posted June 16, 2014 Share #17 Posted June 16, 2014 It can not be simple because controls have necessarily replaced what you bought in the yellow or green box. Add auto focus now demanded by 98%. But you need 12 different kinds to overcome the auto functions foibles. Never forget auto exposure to help the dummies who can not lean to set a camera exposure. Oh wait, that has its own set of problems too. MORE menu items to help you from that morass. In the course of making things simple, they have made things difficult. I walked into the bank Friday and the teller saw a Nikon D7000 around my neck. Sgw said her daughter wants a Nikon. Then she proceeds to tell me Canon takes better pics of dark skinned people and Nikon does better with lighter skinned people. ABSOLUTELY TRUE. I said she was wrong and showed her the exposure compensation button. Then I told her to read the 400 page instruction manual that comes with the camera. So how does a camera manufacturer deal with those kinds and they are in the majority, believe me. Yes turn the dial to M, and bang away. Focus is not assured if you manual focus with the crappy screens in DSLRs. And replacements are for slower lenses, not optimally designed for fast lenses. Hmmmm. The M has auto exposure also, complete with exposure compensation. How does that work? Well you awkwardly press a button on the front of the camera while thumbing a wheel on the back of the camera while looking through the viewfinder at a 1970's LED display... Or put the camera down and dive into the menu. And our oh so simple M camera has a menu system that is itself inefficient and cumbersome. Really. You have to dive into it to change metering mode - yes, our beloved, simple M has multiple metering modes, exposure bracketing, auto slow sync,film modes, frame line color options, focus aids, GPS (with the multi function grip), white balance options, cumbersome ISO change options and much more all accessed through the menu system. It has 9 buttons plus 2 dials plus a 5 way multi-button and a 3-position switch on the outside. To do something as simple as an in camera SD card format on the M you have to scroll through - I can't remember - 3 or is it 4 menu pages? One of those awful features on a DSLR is exposure bracketing. Oh yeah, the M has that also... Accessed through a menu system that is clunky and non-intuitive. I can access and change exposure bracketing on a Canon in about 2 seconds. As for focus, you don't HAVE to use auto focus, but damn it's nice for certain projects. Still, most modern DSLR lenses have visual and audible focus confirmation for manual focus. It really does work well... At least as well as aligning a RF patch. Sure, a DSLR has a lot of features and capabilities and that adds complexity, but many of those features are exceptional photographic tools. But, you can, with ease, make it as simple as a digital M... Which, by the way, isn't that simple anyway. I love my M and generally prefer to shoot it mainly because it is lighter, I like the images better and I enjoy RF photography. But I don't delude myself into thinking it is ohhh so much simpler than my DSLR. 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted June 16, 2014 Share #18 Posted June 16, 2014 I love my M and generally prefer to shoot it mainly because it is lighter, I like the images better and I enjoy RF photography. But I don't delude myself into thinking it is ohhh so much simpler than my DSLR. What you've missed is that it is perfectly possible to set up an M series digital camera so that anyone who has used an M series film camera (an early 1954 M3 for example;)) can use it without having to learn anything whatsoever (except perhaps, not to try to wind-on:eek:) - this is far from true for the vast majority of other cameras whose interface has substantially changed:confused:. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve P Posted June 16, 2014 Share #19 Posted June 16, 2014 So how does a camera manufacturer deal with those kinds and they are in the majority, believe me. By selling them cameras? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveclem Posted June 16, 2014 Share #20 Posted June 16, 2014 I've been rattling on about this ad nauseum. Stupid buttons and menus that will hardly ever get used the majority of time. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 7 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/228839-why-no-dslr-that-is-simple-no-not-a-nikon-df/?do=findComment&comment=2611666'>More sharing options...
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