Winedemonium Posted May 29, 2014 Share #1 Posted May 29, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) Hi, My brand new Noctilux arrived today. "Birth certificate" states 8th May 2014 - not that that is relevant (but talk about "fresh"!). I was excited to test it out on my M240, and took a few shots in the store and couldn't seem to get any in focus. I have on another copy in the past been able to nail them, and I never have a problem getting my 1.4/50 Lux ASPH in focus at 1.4 - always bang on. So I know this isn't (entirely) an issue with my eyesight. But this brand new lens seemed to be back focusing. Here are some test shots on the store's focus board, 100% crops, reduced a little further to 900 pixels across. All shot rangefinder OVF, which is how I shoot. f/0.95 at 1 metre. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! f/1.4 at 1 metre f/2 at 1 metre f/2.8 at 1 metre (camera shake spoils this one) I know that Leica lenses can be calibrated to a body. But I want to be able to use this lens on my M240 and my M6. I know that film cameras are supposed to be more forgiving given the depth of the film emulsion v sensor. But this is not ideal for a lens with a 1cm or so DOF wide open at certain lengths. And what then if I also buy the MM? If I calibrate the lens to the M240, will it not then necessarily be calibrated to the MM? The experienced staff were not in the store today - their assistant helped me (this was supposed to be a simple lens pick up). They get back tomorrow and they know I have left the lens behind so they can have a chance to look at it and give their opinion. I would welcome sage counsel from this forum. Is it just a matter of having the lens adjusted, and job done, or should I be hanging out for another copy? That question above aside, it does rather leave me feeling deflated. Shouldn't a brand new copy shot on a Dec 2013 camera be bang on focus first time around? Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! f/1.4 at 1 metre f/2 at 1 metre f/2.8 at 1 metre (camera shake spoils this one) I know that Leica lenses can be calibrated to a body. But I want to be able to use this lens on my M240 and my M6. I know that film cameras are supposed to be more forgiving given the depth of the film emulsion v sensor. But this is not ideal for a lens with a 1cm or so DOF wide open at certain lengths. And what then if I also buy the MM? If I calibrate the lens to the M240, will it not then necessarily be calibrated to the MM? The experienced staff were not in the store today - their assistant helped me (this was supposed to be a simple lens pick up). They get back tomorrow and they know I have left the lens behind so they can have a chance to look at it and give their opinion. I would welcome sage counsel from this forum. Is it just a matter of having the lens adjusted, and job done, or should I be hanging out for another copy? That question above aside, it does rather leave me feeling deflated. Shouldn't a brand new copy shot on a Dec 2013 camera be bang on focus first time around? ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/227948-my-brand-new-noctilux-095-back-focus-issue-advice/?do=findComment&comment=2599752'>More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted May 29, 2014 Posted May 29, 2014 Hi Winedemonium, Take a look here My brand new Noctilux 0.95 - back focus issue. Advice?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Ecar Posted May 29, 2014 Share #2 Posted May 29, 2014 Looking at your test shots it would seem that focus is indeed off by a fair amount. I assume you used a tripod or other method to ensure that the camera did not move ever so slightly during the test process? Did you try focusing with LV as well? Did you try mounting the lens on another camera? This would help confirm that it's a lens-related problem, and not a RF calibration issue. The fact that your 50/1.4 focusses correctly does not necessarily mean that the RF is properly calibrated - unless you are satisfied that focus is spot on with several other lenses. Both body and lenses are calibrated within tolerances, and (simplistically) shifts in either direction of the tolerance range can either add to one another or compensate each other. In the first instance, you may have a RF and a lens that are individually properly calibrated (ie, within tolerances), but the resulting images are slightly off-focus. This is mostly visible with fast or very fast lenses on digital cameras. FWIW, I have found that achieving a perfect focus match across multiple bodies and several lenses is virtually impossible - unless you are using high-end DSLRs with some kind of lens-dependent focus fine-tune function - and therefore not worth losing sleep over. If I were in your position, though, and were entirely satisfied that the RF is OK and that (whilst it may be within tolerances) the lens is not playing nice with the body, I'd ask the lens to be either replaced or re-adjusted, whichever is the quickest. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
01af Posted May 29, 2014 Share #3 Posted May 29, 2014 Here are some test shots ... These test shots don't mean anything. Could you re-do them properly? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pop Posted May 29, 2014 Share #4 Posted May 29, 2014 These test shots don't mean anything. Could you re-do them properly? 431, unless the TO already knows what you mean by "doing it properly", your post would appear to be quite meaningless. Could you state in a few simple terms what you mean by that? 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winedemonium Posted May 30, 2014 Author Share #5 Posted May 30, 2014 01af - I did these the way I was taught by a Leica specialist, whom I presume was not looking to to teach me how to do this in a definitive, scientific way for technical results for lens review articles. What the photographs do show to anyone who can discriminate sharpness from blur, is that having focused on the bold, central, neutral position, this lens and camera combination produces results that are consistently sharp some distance behind the target. If you have a suggestion for re-testing that will help me for my purpose then do please give your clarified advice. Ecar - thank you. This is really helpful advice. The next step is that the dealer principals are going to "test" the lens on their own M bodies. I will do some liveview comparisons also, to see. Reangefinder focusing, I get accurate results with several lenses, though my 1.4/75 is out. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean-Michel Posted May 30, 2014 Share #6 Posted May 30, 2014 (edited) Hi, I understand that there is no such thing as matching body and lens for calibration. Both are adjusted to a standard independently. It should be a simple matter for your dealer to return the lens to Leica for re-adjustment. Here is a link for a DIY focus check target. I constructed a similar one, based on the LensAlign model to check my dSLR and Leica lenses. Works. The link: http://www.squit.co.uk/photo/focuschart.html Jean-Michel Edited May 30, 2014 by Jean-Michel Forgot the link! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom0511 Posted May 30, 2014 Share #7 Posted May 30, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) I would send body and lens together to Leica. If you own other fast Leica lenses which focus fine with your body then I would eventually just send in the lens (or both and tell them to not change camera) 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gpwhite Posted May 30, 2014 Share #8 Posted May 30, 2014 Winedemonium, I found the best way to assess your lens + body combination is to use a tripod and 1) LV with loupe (premier cru) or 2) EVF focused at 10x (vin ordinaire). The EVF is not truly reliable with the Noct because the lens is uniquely lightstrong, but it is surely more predictable than the RF patch. Also, remember that an RF patch is a 2D representation of the 3D object you are trying to focus... where in the patch you match is much more critical than might be obvious for onion skin DOF. You cannot make a meaningful evaluation of the lens + body calibration going handheld because the plane of DOF is like an onion skin at f/0.95. So, in order to find out how far front or back of RF patch your Noct focuses, you need to make a semi-scientific measurement. The focus will shift, incidentally, as your focus distance changes. I have given up trying to focus the Noct @ f/0.95, with RF. My experience is you need to use EVF or accept a 30% to 40% hit rate... maybe. What do you do with your MM? Take lots and lots of images and bracket focus, hoping that some of them will capture the magnificent and elusive Noct perfection. Is the lens worth ~US$10k? Yes, but it is also very finicky with a long learning curve. I don't think "bang on" performance for a given body + Noct system exists out of the box, unless it is provided to you by Stefan Daniel. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gpwhite Posted May 30, 2014 Share #9 Posted May 30, 2014 Also, the good news about your particular lens is that CA @ f/0.95 seems quite modest, based on images you posted. In my experience, CA is a greater irritant than focus wobble on Noct... once you learn how to estimate focus with your lens. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted May 31, 2014 Share #10 Posted May 31, 2014 Shooting at wide apertures at 1 metre with a rangefinder is an unrealistic test. . Lenses are designed to focus at one distance, with all others being a reasonable compromise. Adjusting the Noctilux to focus perfectly 1 metre does not mean that it will perform better at typical distances. The fact that your 1.4 lens is 'bang on' does not mean much. It could be off elsewhere, or an outlier. . 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thighslapper Posted May 31, 2014 Share #11 Posted May 31, 2014 (edited) I would not rely on testing this lens at 1 metre ...... Are you going to be habitually taking photos wide open at 1metre ???? Repeat at a sensible distance that you would use for portraits etc .... There is significant focus shift between 0.95 and smaller apertures which you can see quite easily with live-view ..... but usually it is adjusted so the main area of focus remains where it is needed ... notice how the DOF area marches backwards but the forward focus point moves only a little ..... and with portraits a little back focus is always preferred ..... otherwise you just get noses in focus if you wobble a bit .... I note that you say your 75/1.4 is out ..... and this, the nocti and 90/2 are THE lenses to show up minor rangefinder miscalibrations that pass unnoticed with other Leica lenses. The Nocti was assembled by a small group of specialist technicians and should be adjusted more carefully than other less critical optics. I have 4 M digital bodies and have found that if the rangefinder is calibrated to the Noctilux then it is invariably OK with all my other lenses .... none of which are perfect, but all of which well enough matched not to give OOF results in real world use ..... If I had this lens I would adjust the camera to suit ...... and with the small degree of miscalibration you have posted I would be pretty certain all your other lenses would be fine on the altered body ..... ....... if they have another to hand, by all means change it ...... but don't be surprised if thats not spot on either ....... we are talking millimetres here .... not inches ..... .....oh .... and I wouldn't trust the 50/1.4 as a guide ...... I have had 3 of these ..... and all were out and had to go back to Solms to be adjusted (and I am not alone) .... the remaining copy is still not perfect but is near enough to be useable ..... Edited May 31, 2014 by thighslapper 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winedemonium Posted June 2, 2014 Author Share #12 Posted June 2, 2014 Hi,I understand that there is no such thing as matching body and lens for calibration. Both are adjusted to a standard independently. It should be a simple matter for your dealer to return the lens to Leica for re-adjustment. Here is a link for a DIY focus check target. I constructed a similar one, based on the LensAlign model to check my dSLR and Leica lenses. Works. The link: Squit Photo Jean-Michel Jean-Michel - that is very helpful, thank you. Also, remember that an RF patch is a 2D representation of the 3D object you are trying to focus... where in the patch you match is much more critical than might be obvious for onion skin DOF. All good advice as always gpwhite, thank you. This part in particular hadn't crossed my mind - DOF being slimmer than the part that shows as in focus in the patch. Another case for focus bracketing I think. Though it would be easier if the lens and body started at a 'neutral' position so I could use the RF patch, rather than start back-focused. I would not rely on testing this lens at 1 metre ...... Are you going to be habitually taking photos wide open at 1metre ???? Yes - closer if the lens would do it, but it is already a compromise that this lens won't focus to 0.7m, only 1.0m. So, yes, as well as 1.5, 2, 2.5..... The Nocti was assembled by a small group of specialist technicians and should be adjusted more carefully than other less critical optics. I have 4 M digital bodies and have found that if the rangefinder is calibrated to the Noctilux then it is invariably OK with all my other lenses .... none of which are perfect, but all of which well enough matched not to give OOF results in real world use ..... If I had this lens I would adjust the camera to suit ...... I hadn't though this way around. I will suggest it. I have the 1.4/75 and the 2/90 - the latter focuses fine, but the 1.4/75 is even more back-focused than the 0.95 Noctlilux.... on my M. It's a holiday in Hong Kong today. The next step will be to see what the principals at the dealer have to say once they have been able to try the lens on two or more other M bodies. I envisage using this lens more in the 1 - 4 metre range than the 4 - infinity range. The sum of all this advice is that it seems there will be a 'learning curve' with this lens, no matter the calibration. Thanks all for the advice to date. I will provide an update. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winedemonium Posted June 3, 2014 Author Share #13 Posted June 3, 2014 Update - the store principals confirm a back-focus problem after their own testing. I have been advised that another copy of the 0.95/50 will arrive later this week. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winedemonium Posted June 13, 2014 Author Share #14 Posted June 13, 2014 By way of update, my sealed brand new replacement copy arrived and I went in to get it today. We opened the box and tested the lens - manufactured one day later, on 9th May 2014. The back focus issue was severe enough wide open on three different M240s (all three of which were fairly consistent) that this copy will also go back to Germany. I have decided not to persevere. I will await an APO-50 (an entirely different sort of lens, I know). All I can say for now is that if you are looking to buy a brand new Noctilux - check it thoroughly. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malvolio Posted June 13, 2014 Share #15 Posted June 13, 2014 It took a third copy of a brand new 28 Cron for a back focus issue to be resolved. The first two were way out. Always test them first IMHO 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted June 13, 2014 Share #16 Posted June 13, 2014 As thighslapper - increasingly a voice of reason on this forum - says, the trio of the Noctilux, 75mm Summilux and APO 90 push the boundaries of the rangefinder, even in updated M Typ 240 guise. I think these lenses are better left to Live View if close focus wide-open focussing accuracy is your priority. They are rather easier to use when stopped down (which defeats the point of having them, I do understand) and at longer distances. That's what I do and I'm much happier with the results I get. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean-Michel Posted June 13, 2014 Share #17 Posted June 13, 2014 While I always understood that camera are lenses are not 'matched' for focus, Thorsten Overgaard has recently posted this information in his Leica blog: "…What the new technology exactly consists of I cannot tell (because I haven't asked), but it has changed from adjusting the three screws inside the camera to also adjusting the sensor position itself. It is simply stated as "sensor adjust" on the repair form. Hence, Leica asked for my 50mm Noctilux f/0.95 and 90mm Summicron with the cameras, so as to adjust the whole kit at once…" Jean-Michel Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thighslapper Posted June 14, 2014 Share #18 Posted June 14, 2014 (edited) I'd take that statement with a pinch of salt. Unless things have changed dramatically (from the M9) the sensor is mounted and adjusted with 3 fixings all of which are packed with shims to ensure the sensor is completely parallel and exactly the right distance from the lens attachment flange. I cannot conceive of any screw or other adjustment being fine enough to allow this to be done easily purely for the purposes of matching duff lenses to the camera ....... checking alignment and adjusting if found to be out - maybe .... and it would require a full camera dismantling anyway ....... and futhermore there are only 2 screws (or more correctly one screw and one allen head bolt) which are needed for rangefinder adjustment ..... the 3rd screw is just an end stop adjustment to limit the range of play in the mechanism..... With live-view and focus peaking I suspect the procedure for adjustment has changed and is more accurate ....but you are still limited by a pretty antiquated and quite crude mechanical adjustment that is never going to be perfect. I doubt if other humble consumers turfed up with several bodies and a bag full of lenses with the request 'get them all to work perfectly together' we would be treated with quite so much courtesy and enthusiasm as young Thorsten..... Edited June 14, 2014 by thighslapper 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted June 14, 2014 Share #19 Posted June 14, 2014 You guys! I have a converted Canon 50mm F/0.95 that is spot-on for focus. Eat your hearts out. (What a strange expression). Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaroopaitummai Posted July 5, 2014 Share #20 Posted July 5, 2014 I am pretty sure my noct wouldn't pass your tests but I wouldn't bother. I have taken amazing pictures with it. I would urge you do the same. Best regards. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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