masjah Posted March 1, 2013 Share #21 Posted March 1, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) Hi John, Thanks for the great question. The problem seems to be with the design of the Leica R to Sony E adapter for example. That adapter doesn't seem to push the pin in the APO-Extender-R 2x out of the way so that an R only lens (I tried it on my 80-200/4) can be attached. If you attach adapter and extender first to the camera there is no way I find to push the pin in the extender out of the way. The answer to your question is: You would have to, but you can't. Ah! Whereas with mounting the extender on a Leica R camera rather than a Sony adapter there probably wouldn't be a problem. Presumably the Sony adapter doesn't bother with such niceties because it can't transmit aperture information in any case! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 1, 2013 Posted March 1, 2013 Hi masjah, Take a look here APO-Extender-R 1.4x, 2x fit on which lens?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
k-hawinkler Posted March 1, 2013 Author Share #22 Posted March 1, 2013 Ah! Whereas with mounting the extender on a Leica R camera rather than a Sony adapter there probably wouldn't be a problem. Presumably the Sony adapter doesn't bother with such niceties because it can't transmit aperture information in any case! Hi John, Exactly. That's what it looks like to me as well! Now with all the help I got here, especially from Doug, I am able to travel the Leica road a little further, looking for the next challenge. Thanks to all who contributed to this thread! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildlightphoto Posted March 1, 2013 Share #23 Posted March 1, 2013 Ah! Whereas with mounting the extender on a Leica R camera rather than a Sony adapter there probably wouldn't be a problem. Presumably the Sony adapter doesn't bother with such niceties because it can't transmit aperture information in any case! The lever that is pushed out of the way is the one that opens the lens to full aperture. If the adapter pushed the lever out of the way it would also have to release it at the time of exposure i.e., make the auto-diaphragm mechanism work. That would be a very nice touch but I don't see that happening any time soon. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k-hawinkler Posted March 1, 2013 Author Share #24 Posted March 1, 2013 The lever that is pushed out of the way is the one that opens the lens to full aperture. If the adapter pushed the lever out of the way it would also have to release it at the time of exposure i.e., make the auto-diaphragm mechanism work. That would be a very nice touch but I don't see that happening any time soon. Doug, Many many thanks. You have helped me on so many occasions. Now I am getting curious though. How will the M240's Leica R adapter function? Did Leica consider the case discussed in this thread? Inquiring minds want to know ... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildlightphoto Posted March 1, 2013 Share #25 Posted March 1, 2013 Now I am getting curious though. How will the M240's Leica R adapter function? Did Leica consider the case discussed in this thread? Inquiring minds want to know ... Everything I've read about the M240's R adapter suggests it's just as dumb as the Sony adapter so those of us who want to use extenders on R lenses with the M240 will have to push the lever out of the way manually. One of many many many reasons the R10 (or would it have been called just Leica R?) would have been a preferred choice. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k-hawinkler Posted March 1, 2013 Author Share #26 Posted March 1, 2013 Doug, You certainly are not the only one who feels that way. The R lenses I have indeed perform extremely well. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
masjah Posted March 1, 2013 Share #27 Posted March 1, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) OK here's something else. I've got a Telescope Ocular R and I thought it might serve as an example of a "dumb" connector. I didn't have any difficulty at all mounting a ROM 2X extender on it followed by a 28-90 ROM zoom! Furthemore I could stop down the aperture, and see the blades closing, as nothing was holding them open! However, I then tried them on my R9, doing it in the wrong order (that is, mounting the 28-90 ROM zoom on to the ROM 2X extender, then the two on to the camera - not that I intend to make a habit of this). They went on without difficulty, and everything seemed to work OK. I'm wondering now if I've got a fault somewhere because they work OK when mounted in the wrong order! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k-hawinkler Posted March 1, 2013 Author Share #28 Posted March 1, 2013 (edited) John, Without difficulty I can mount all my APO extenders on the first R lens I got, namely the APO-R 280/4. That lens was made, IIRC, 20 years ago and doesn't have a ROM. It's certainly not an R only lens I think. It was listed as R cam. So, I would be interested to know how you classify your R lenses. namely Cam1, 2, 3, R only, etc. Thanks. Edited March 1, 2013 by k-hawinkler Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
masjah Posted March 1, 2013 Share #29 Posted March 1, 2013 John, Without difficulty I can mount all my APO extenders on the first R lens I got, namely the APO-R 280/4. That lens was made, IIRC, 20 years ago and doesn't have a ROM. It's certainly not an R only lens I think. It was listed as R cam. So, I would be interested to know how you classify your R lenses. namely Cam1, 2, 3, R only, etc. Thanks. K-H There are five types of R lens (with one or two other special cases) 1 cam 2 cam 3 cam R cam (sometimes called 3rd cam, or 3rd cam only, or R cam only, not to be confused with 3 cam) ROM (which also have the 3rd cam, but not 1st and 2nd cams) If your 280/4 lens was correctly listed as R cam then it will be an R only lens, missing the 1st and 2nd cams. The can be used on R3 - R9 cameras. The first and second cams look like chrome curved ramps around the inside of the rear of the lens. The R cam looks like a black stepped piece of metal, not to be confused with the aperture stop down lever. Nearly all my lenses are ROM (except for my 28/2.8 PC which has no aperture connection at all and is a special case, and an old 135/2.8 3 cam) 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
naturephoto1 Posted March 1, 2013 Share #30 Posted March 1, 2013 K-H There are five types of R lens (with one or two other special cases) 1 cam 2 cam 3 cam R cam (sometimes called 3rd cam, or 3rd cam only, or R cam only, not to be confused with 3 cam) ROM (which also have the 3rd cam, but not 1st and 2nd cams) If your 280/4 lens was correctly listed as R cam then it will be an R only lens, missing the 1st and 2nd cams. The can be used on R3 - R9 cameras. The first and second cams look like chrome curved ramps around the inside of the rear of the lens. The R cam looks like a black stepped piece of metal, not to be confused with the aperture stop down lever. Nearly all my lenses are ROM (except for my 28/2.8 PC which has no aperture connection at all and is a special case, and an old 135/2.8 3 cam) I believe that the 280 f4 Apo Telyt lenses were only made as either a 3 cam or a ROM version. Mine was made I believe is from the second set of 500 lenses and it is a 3 cam lens. Most of us that have been in the R system for a long time probably have more 3 cam lenses than ROM. The 3 cam lenses are more universal for the Leica film SLR cameras. The ROM was only needed for additional information to be transferred to the R8 and R9 cameras. I believe that I only purchased 2 lenses with the ROM which are my 35mm-70mm f4 Vario Elmar and my 80-200mm f4 Vario Elmar lenses. But, I started collecting my lenses in 1984 and I had most in the 1980s and a few in the early to mid 1990s. I may have had Leica USA install the first ROM to my 2800mm f2.8 lens in I believe 1998 (for my R8). I purchased 5 additional lenses in 2012 and as mentioned, only the 2 zooms have the ROM. Rich 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildlightphoto Posted March 1, 2013 Share #31 Posted March 1, 2013 (edited) J... the APO-R 280/4.That lens was made, IIRC, 20 years ago and doesn't have a ROM. It's certainly not an R only lens I think. It was listed as R cam. R-cam lenses are R only. As far as I know all 280mm f/4 APO as originally made were R only (which includes ROM lenses). Mine is an early model and was originally R cam and would not fit on my SL. I had it converted to 3-cam. .... I'm wondering now if I've got a fault somewhere because they work OK when mounted in the wrong order! Some lenses are more tolerant of the "wrong" order than others. My 280mm f/4 APO is tolerant, my 180mm f/2.8 APO (ROM converted to ROM+2nd cam) isn't. I believe that the 280 f4 Apo Telyt lenses were only made as either a 3 cam or a ROM version. Mine was made I believe is from the second set of 500 lenses and it is a 3 cam lens. It's more likely it's an R cam (also called 3rd cam) lens. Edited March 1, 2013 by wildlightphoto 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
algrove Posted March 1, 2013 Share #32 Posted March 1, 2013 K-H- OK, I tried to put a ROM 80-200 on a non-ROM 2x and no go as you now know. Actually I am thinking the ROM strip is what interferes with this mounting process. So the I tried a non-ROM 100 on my non-ROM 2x and voila no problem, it fits just fine. Also, just to try two I did the same thing with a 180/3.4 and it fit too since it is a non-ROM lens. I am thinking for for M use, the ROM strip is useless anyway and I just might remove it except for the fact that Leica dealers I have talked with say ROM lenses do attract a slightly higher price as they are or are perceived to be the latest lenses made during a lenses manufacturing life, i.e., usually the last produced. I did notice that there are 2 tiny phillips screws, one at each end of the ROM contact strip. I was wondering if the ROM strip can be removed without damage to the lens. Then later one could insert it back if you were to sell it. The short of this is that I am going to look for a ROM 2x to buy and then we will know if IT works on non-ROM R lenses. If that is the case then we all know which extenders to go for in the future. Thanks very much for bringing up this small, but BIG issue. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildlightphoto Posted March 1, 2013 Share #33 Posted March 1, 2013 OK, I tried to put a ROM 80-200 on a non-ROM 2x and no go as you now know. Actually I am thinking the ROM strip is what interferes with this mounting process. You've got too many variables in your experiment to make this conclusion. Try moving the extender's aperture control lever out of the way, from the camera side, before putting the 80-200 on the extender. My 180mm f/2.8 APO is a ROM lens and it needs to have the lever moved out of the way or else it's a no-go. Putting the extender on an R body first moves the lever out of the way and then the 180 is OK on the extender. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k-hawinkler Posted March 1, 2013 Author Share #34 Posted March 1, 2013 K-H- OK, I tried to put a ROM 80-200 on a non-ROM 2x and no go as you now know. Actually I am thinking the ROM strip is what interferes with this mounting process. So the I tried a non-ROM 100 on my non-ROM 2x and voila no problem, it fits just fine. Also, just to try two I did the same thing with a 180/3.4 and it fit too since it is a non-ROM lens. I am thinking for for M use, the ROM strip is useless anyway and I just might remove it except for the fact that Leica dealers I have talked with say ROM lenses do attract a slightly higher price as they are or are perceived to be the latest lenses made during a lenses manufacturing life, i.e., usually the last produced. I did notice that there are 2 tiny phillips screws, one at each end of the ROM contact strip. I was wondering if the ROM strip can be removed without damage to the lens. Then later one could insert it back if you were to sell it. The short of this is that I am going to look for a ROM 2x to buy and then we will know if IT works on non-ROM R lenses. If that is the case then we all know which extenders to go for in the future. Thanks very much for bringing up this small, but BIG issue. Hi Lou, Many thanks. I followed Doug's advice and have it working now. Please read http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/2330326-post18.html Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
algrove Posted March 2, 2013 Share #35 Posted March 2, 2013 (edited) You've got too many variables in your experiment to make this conclusion. Try moving the extender's aperture control lever out of the way, from the camera side, before putting the 80-200 on the extender. My 180mm f/2.8 APO is a ROM lens and it needs to have the lever moved out of the way or else it's a no-go. Putting the extender on an R body first moves the lever out of the way and then the 180 is OK on the extender. My problem is I have no R body. My lenses are intended to be used with the M. No R adapter for M yet, but I have a Novoflex that seems to work on most lenses. ROM's mount directly on this adapter, but not on a non-ROM extender as previously stated. I will try the lever trick. This just seems more of a pain than just getting a ROM 2x, especially if having to change lenses or extenders in the field. Since I wrote the above I have made it work too. If the aperture control lever is not needed for M work, wonder if it can be deactivated? Edited March 2, 2013 by algrove 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildlightphoto Posted March 2, 2013 Share #36 Posted March 2, 2013 (edited) My problem is I have no R body. My lenses are intended to be used with the M. No R adapter for M yet, but I have a Novoflex that seems to work on most lenses. ROM's mount directly on this adapter, but not on a non-ROM extender as previously stated. I will try the lever trick. This just seems more of a pain than just getting a ROM 2x, especially if having to change lenses or extenders in the field. The ROM 2x extender has the same lever. EDIT: I may have to eat my words. The lever is the same but the spring tension is opposite on my 2x APO ROM and my 1.4x APO extenders. In other words, the 1.4x APO extender by itself, with no lens and not on a camera, rests at the 2 o'clock position viewed from the back, while the same lever on the 2x APO ROM lens rests at the 4 o'clock position. Not having a non-ROM 2x extender I can't say whether this extender's lever works the same way but I can guarantee that the ROM contacts themselves (or lack of) have absolutely nothing to do with the problem. Edited March 2, 2013 by wildlightphoto 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildlightphoto Posted March 2, 2013 Share #37 Posted March 2, 2013 More word-eating: algrove is correct, the ROM on the lens interferes with the lever on those extenders with spring tension that moves the lever to the 2 o'clock position. I'm willing to trade my ROM 2x APO-Extender-R for a non-ROM 2x APO-Extender-R, if the non-ROM extender's spring tension is causing a problem. Reason: the ROM extender's spring tension apparently can slow the auto-aperture mechanism, a problem I had last weekend when I had inconsistent exposures when using the 2x APO ROM and 280mm f/4 APO. A slower auto-diaphragm will not matter to those who are not using a Leica-R body. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
algrove Posted March 3, 2013 Share #38 Posted March 3, 2013 (edited) More word-eating: algrove is correct, the ROM on the lens interferes with the lever on those extenders with spring tension that moves the lever to the 2 o'clock position. I'm willing to trade my ROM 2x APO-Extender-R for a non-ROM 2x APO-Extender-R, if the non-ROM extender's spring tension is causing a problem. Reason: the ROM extender's spring tension apparently can slow the auto-aperture mechanism, a problem I had last weekend when I had inconsistent exposures when using the 2x APO ROM and 280mm f/4 APO. A slower auto-diaphragm will not matter to those who are not using a Leica-R body. This is definitely getting very serious now. Trading a ROM for a non-ROM! Never thought I would read that here. BTW, you must have lost some sleep over this as I see your posts are barely 6 hours apart. Heck, unscrew the ROM strip. No? Edited March 3, 2013 by algrove Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildlightphoto Posted March 3, 2013 Share #39 Posted March 3, 2013 Heck, unscrew the ROM strip. No? No. That won't change the lever's spring. BTW, you must have lost some sleep over this as I see your posts are barely 6 hours apart. Engineer, sorry 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
algrove Posted March 3, 2013 Share #40 Posted March 3, 2013 No. That won't change the lever's spring. Engineer, sorry On the removing ROM strip comment, I imagined the lever would not hit anything in its swing path. Guess not. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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