M Monochrom, filters and Silver Efex Pro 2

[bybrett]

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What is not being considered here is that when one is using the M9 color image to make a conversion, one can use the entire 18MP of detail and only lighten or darken specific colors. I don't see why one would typically resort to the drastic effect of only using a single color channel before converting to b/w... that would be discarding an advantage of shooting with RGB in the first place. Looking at the M9 file as if it were a b/w file shot through a deep filter would be a mistake in my opinion.

 

I've found the MM files to be "not very tweakable"... almost as if you are dealing with a very high quality B/W JPG.

[IkarusJohn]

If you take a file from the M9 and want to emulate the effects of a R60 filter, you do not use any of the green or blue channels. They do not have any response in that portion of the spectrum. If they are a shade of gray, and get used- then the image does not emulate a Red filter. The only pixels that are used are those under the Red portion of the mosaic filter. You get information from 4.5million pixels. With the M Monochrom, you get output from all 18MPixels.

 

Sorry, Brian. I misunderstood your comment to be that using a red filter on an M Monochrom, you'd end up with a 4.5 MP image. Clearly, that can't be true as the sensor will record the entire 18 MP that reaches the sensor. Some parts of the colour range might be missing because of the filter, but all 18,000,000 sensors will record a shade of grey without the interference of the Bayer array.

 

Looking at how the sliders work on the M9, it's a very bold move to say the sliders in SEP2 will wipe out the data from those pixels will be removed altogether. I guess if that's true, the entire image will vanish if you could click the red, green & blue sliders at the same time. Somehow, I doubt it. Not sure I really care ...

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[brianv]

What is not being considered here is that when one is using the M9 color image to make a conversion, one can use the entire 18MP of detail and only lighten or darken specific colors. I don't see why one would typically resort to the drastic effect of only using a single color channel before converting to b/w... that would be discarding an advantage of shooting with RGB in the first place. Looking at the M9 file as if it were a b/w file shot through a deep filter would be a mistake in my opinion.

 

If you want to emulate the R60 red filter, you exclude blue and green channels. If you are selectively increasing/decreasing the mixture of the three channels, you are emulating a color correction filter. You could of course use an optical color correction filter with the M Monochrom. It requires more intimate knowledge of the scene and the bank of filters available. For static objects, and scenic shots: one could use the LCD of the camera for feedback.

 

I'll probably keep a light yellow filter on the lens most of the time, and a red filter at the ready.

[brianv]

I've found the MM files to be "not very tweakable"... almost as if you are dealing with a very high quality B/W JPG.

 

Are you unhappy with your production camera? I suspect the dealer will take it back, or you could sell it at a profit on Ebay or Amazon. One GETDPI member wants $10K for his. Amazon and Ebay- more than that.

[jaapv]

Judging by Erwin Puts comparison chart, an orange filter would probably be the better choice over a red one.I think I'll settle for middle yellow to start with.

If you want to emulate the R60 red filter, you exclude blue and green channels. If you are selectively increasing/decreasing the mixture of the three channels, you are emulating a color correction filter. You could of course use an optical color correction filter with the M Monochrom. It requires more intimate knowledge of the scene and the bank of filters available. For static objects, and scenic shots: one could use the LCD of the camera for feedback.

 

I'll probably keep a light yellow filter on the lens most of the time, and a red filter at the ready.

[brianv]

We have a trip to Williamsburg, VA planned for November. I'm looking forward to bringing the M Monochrom and M9 there. Hopefully it will come in well before then to give some time for experimentation with lens and filter combinations. I have Red filters for most of my lenses from IR days, but also have Orange in several sizes.

[AlanG]

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If you want to emulate the R60 red filter, you exclude blue and green channels. If you are selectively increasing/decreasing the mixture of the three channels, you are emulating a color correction filter.

 

My point is that this is a red herring because when making b/w conversions I am not trying to emulate the crude effects of those filters anymore. We have better tools now. And I certainly would not typically use a single color channel. With an RGB file I can select specific colors and deal with them on an individual basis. Even lighten yellow and blue objects at the same time.

 

Most of the image is generally not made up of highly saturated single channel colors and would have a good representation of RGB values and thus would preserve the full detail of the sensor in a b/w conversion as long as you don't limit yourself to only one or two channels. And areas of the scene made up of color from a single channel generally is broad and not highly detailed or contains detail from the other channels.

Edited September 4, 2012 by AlanG

[brianv]

The effects of the "crude" filters are highly useful for technical work. And photographers got by using them with black and white film for a long time. They eliminate portions of the spectrum from the final image. I wonder if Leica will market the M Monochrom to the scientific market. It would make a great microscope camera. Especially if they ever consider leaving the IR absorbing filter off the CCD.

 

I just don't like playing with Photoshop that much. I still have 3.0 installed that came with my first Digital camera almost 20 years ago. It is Monochrome, and I have a lot of color filters that I used with it. They'll be used with my M Monochrom.

[bybrett]

Are you unhappy with your production camera? I suspect the dealer will take it back, or you could sell it at a profit on Ebay or Amazon. One GETDPI member wants $10K for his. Amazon and Ebay- more than that.

 

I don't own a Monochrom. I have shot pre-production in Berlin and production since.

[bybrett]

Judging by Erwin Puts comparison chart, an orange filter would probably be the better choice over a red one.I think I'll settle for middle yellow to start with.

 

I've just completed a Monochrom workshop for Leica and recommended an orange filter to the 6 photographers. It created a nice file from most scenes. Also the Auto metering works well with orange but with red you need to compensate manually.

[bybrett]

My point is that this is a red herring because when making b/w conversions I am not trying to emulate the crude effects of those filters anymore. We have better tools now. And I certainly would not typically use a single color channel. With an RGB file I can select specific colors and deal with them on an individual basis. Even lighten yellow and blue objects at the same time.

 

Most of the image is generally not made up of highly saturated single channel colors and would have a good representation of RGB values and thus would preserve the full detail of the sensor in a b/w conversion as long as you don't limit yourself to only one or two channels.

 

I generally agree with this. To fine process a Monochrom image you need to dodge and burn a lot more because you don't have the convenience of individual channels to tweak. Therefore not unlike B/W film...

[AlanG]

I just don't like playing with Photoshop that much. I still have 3.0 installed that came with my first Digital camera almost 20 years ago. It is Monochrome, and I have a lot of color filters that I used with it. They'll be used with my M Monochrom.

 

So what you seem to be saying is that you are not really that familiar with converting RGB to b/w using some of the more selective methods that are available in the Raw processors or other PP software. I suggest you try it and see what you think after that.

 

Let's take a typical example of b/w environmental portraiture where one might want to use a red filter to minimize rosacea or some other reddish issue on a person's face. Well you can achieve the same result starting with an RGB image but limit the effect to only the face rather than apply it to the entire image. One could even mask off the lips to keep them from going too light.

[SpiritShooter]

Let's take a typical example of b/w environmental portraiture where one might want to use a red filter to minimize rosacea or some other reddish issue on a person's face. Well you can achieve the same result starting with an RGB image but limit the effect to only the face rather than apply it to the entire image. One could even mask off the lips to keep them from going too light.

 

My main heartburn with the MM is exactly this. Over the years, I have become so comfortable with color to B/W conversions that I just don't know yet if I will find value in what so many are calling a return to "purist" B/W shooting.

 

I am interested to see what September 17th brings. If the M10 begins to approach the D800 resolution and the high ISO capability of the MM, I think I will forgo the MM and look toward the M10 if it materializes for the post production filtration capabilities.

 

Mike

[Ivan Muller]

I hope you do not put me in that category. Although I tend to buy small fry collectibles from time to time I normally use my stuff....

 

 

Jaap, you use your cameras a lot and are very knowledgeable, ...I don't know if you make your living from photography, but if you don't you probably could...so no I did not put you in that category...

 

I am just wondering if the photographers that don't even know how filters work and that are considering buying a MM, are they doing it just because they can and will they ever see the difference between this and the 'normal' M..? But even if one is all of this, there is no problem in acquiring a new toy because of what it can do...millions of people have bought 'uber' 4x4 vehicles and have never driven them off the tar road...nothing wrong in that either...but surely its a pity when you have the MM and the best you can do is post low rest pics on the LF...?

 

And the barb about Hermes leather coverings, well the fact is that Leica does cater for the 'image' market, why else will they bring out these silly editions? The fact is that posts that are most read here are the ones about bags and cases and which colour is better the grey or the black etc etc ....

 

Us working class photographers can never ever afford or justify these uber toys, and that's ok, we are not complaining about that, its just that we are disappointed that the majority of those who can just never use it to its full potential...

[brianv]

So what you seem to be saying is that you are not really that familiar with converting RGB to b/w using some of the more selective methods that are available in the Raw processors or other PP software. I suggest you try it and see what you think after that.

 

 

 

What I am saying is- after writing my own image processing software throughout most of the 1980s, and working with digital cameras for over 30 years: I have no interest in converting color images from a camera with a mosaic filter to monochrome when I can simply buy a camera with monochrome output as a salient feature.

 

This all boils down to trade-offs: flexibility in adjusting spectral response in post processing by converting a color image to monochrome versus using optical filters in pre-processing and gaining spatial resolution and eliminating artifacts that result from the use of mosaic filters. I'll use an M9 for color and the M Monochrom for black+white.

 

For another running theme on the thread... and I know how color filters work. I am a collector, but use my stuff. Some of the stuff that I bought new is collectible. Must be. My digital camera is older than the one on display in the Smithsonian.

Edited September 4, 2012 by brianv

[wattsy]

What I am saying is- after writing my own image processing software throughout most of the 1980s, and working with digital cameras for over 30 years...

 

...and I know how color filters work. I am a collector, but use my stuff. Some of the stuff that I bought new is collectible. Must be. My digital camera is older than the one on display in the Smithsonian.

 

Why do all these potentially interesting threads end up as tedious pissing matches?

[thighslapper]

What I am saying is- after writing my own image processing software throughout most of the 1980s, and working with digital cameras for over 30 years: I have no interest in converting color images from a camera with a mosaic filter to monochrome when I can simply buy a camera with monochrome output as a salient feature.

 

This all boils down to trade-offs: flexibility in adjusting spectral response in post processing by converting a color image to monochrome versus using optical filters in pre-processing and gaining spatial resolution and eliminating artifacts that result from the use of mosaic filters. I'll use an M9 for color and the M Monochrom for black+white.

 

For another running theme on the thread... and I know how color filters work. I am a collector, but use my stuff. Some of the stuff that I bought new is collectible. Must be. My digital camera is older than the one on display in the Smithsonian.

 

The voice of sanity

 

Shame it wasn't at the beginning of this thread......

[AlanG]

What I am saying is- after writing my own image processing software throughout most of the 1980s, and working with digital cameras for over 30 years: I have no interest in converting color images from a camera with a mosaic filter to monochrome when I can simply buy a camera with monochrome output as a salient feature.

 

This all boils down to trade-offs: flexibility in adjusting spectral response in post processing by converting a color image to monochrome versus using optical filters in pre-processing and gaining spatial resolution and eliminating artifacts that result from the use of mosaic filters. I'll use an M9 for color and the M Monochrom for black+white.

 

For another running theme on the thread... and I know how color filters work. I am a collector, but use my stuff. Some of the stuff that I bought new is collectible. Must be. My digital camera is older than the one on display in the Smithsonian.

 

As long as you are happy with your results that is all that matters. But it seems you are saying that you are consciously making a tradeoff in control (which you don't like or want to use) for some other characteristic of the camera that you find superior in either resolution or noise or workflow. Isn't that what I was suggesting is the difference between using an M9 vs. the MM for b/w from the beginning? I don't see that we are in disagreement about anything.

 

My only question is if in reality you will save much time or effort in post production just because you start with a monochrome file. You still have to make all the other adjustments in the raw converter and the b/w preview feature in C1 makes monochrome output pretty seamless. To the point it looks as if you started with a monochrome file but this b/w preview will show the result of using the color control sliders. (And some other converters have similar features I understand.) The power of raw converters such as C1 may eliminate the need to do anything else to the file in Photoshop if you don't need more localized adjustments or retouching.

 

However it is your call how you want to work but from your post above I am still not clear if you have tried out these features in the more recent software and formed an opinion about how well or poorly this works for you. You have not expressed an opinion as far as I can recall. (Only the latest version of C1 has this and I don't know at what point Lightroom, Camera Raw or other software added something similar.)

Edited September 4, 2012 by AlanG

[brianv]

I've used them a couple of times, I understand the underlying "math" of how the features work, I know how to implement those features in software and have done so before.

 

The most important feature of the M Monochrom "for me" is the elimination of artifacts that result from the use of a Mosaic filter. These show up in color images and images converted to monochrome.

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[dierk]

I posted this in an other thread already.

 

Leica M Monochrom with Zeiss C-Biogon 21mm/4.5@f/8 and orange filter 22

 

the result is a matter of taste and you may do it different. But this is, what I saw and had in mind, taking the shot.

 

click for magnifications

 

my final result

 

here is a screen shot from LR 4.1, I exported into Nik Silver Efex2

 

the exposure is very dark to take care of the clouds. In the field you don't see anything on the screen of the camera besides the histogram!

 

and the screen shot from Nik Silver Efex2

my impression is, that the noise is increased from Nik. May be, I have to do more testing.