MPJMP Posted August 28, 2012 Share #1 Posted August 28, 2012 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) This is pure fantasy, but I thought I'd throw it out there to see who might have similar ideas and preferences. Awhile back, I came up with an idea of what my perfect Leica digital M camera would be. The concept would be to have a digital M camera with a reduced feature set that more closely replicated the experience of classic film Leica photography. The resulting camera might, in theory, be less expensive to produce than a full fledged M9, thereby constituting a "budget" model. The important specs would be: 1) NO rear LCD. Think how revolutionary that would be. One of the "benefits" of film photography that is often touted by its proponents is that you are free from the potential distraction that a rear LCD brings. No "chimping" your shots. No fiddling with menu settings. You remain in the moment, engaged with your subject. Of course, with enough discipline you can do that with an LCD, but by removing it entirely you remove the temptation to go back and look at your results and instead focus on getting the next perfect shot. Another thing you remove is a major production cost, which results in a lower price point for the consumer. Instead of an LCD, there would be a traditional wheel to set ISO. There would be no other buttons on the rear panel. When you think about it, other than focus, aperture, shutter speed, and ISO the only other essential setting that needs to be made is selecting the capture format: RAW, JPEG, etc. Which leads to... 2) Capture in RAW (DNG) format only. To make the camera as simple and pure as possible, and to ensure only the best quality original files, the camera would only capture in a RAW format such as Adobe's DNG "digital negative" format. There is then no need to set things such as white balance, compression, megapixel quality, etc.-- the types of things that you might have spent time fiddling with on the LCD screen. All image tweaking would be done in post-processing. 3) Shutter cocking lever. Got this idea from the Epson RD-1 from years ago. By deleting both the rear LCD and motor for cocking the shutter you would conserve a significant amount of battery power. A single battery charge might last weeks, instead of hours or days. It also replicates an important part of the classic Leica M experience lacking in the M8/9. 4) Hybrid optical viewfinder with electronic framelines. I've been led to believe that one of the biggest costs in producing an M camera is the installation and calibration of the frame lines. Replacing these with elctronic framelines, such as used in the Fuji X series, saves money and provides for potentially more accurate and reliable framing. 5) As for focusing, I don't have any great ideas other than keeping the tried and true optical rangefinder. While it is expensive, there is no better way I am aware of to accurately focus a manual M lens. 6) Return of the M8's top panel LCD for battery status and frame count. With no large rear panel LCD, that would become a necessity. 7) The weather-sealed bottom plate would be removed to reveal the battery compartment, SD card slot, and an industry standard USB connection. What are your thoughts? I have no realistic expectation that such a camera would ever be produced either by Leica or any 3rd party, but I've never heard some of these ideas tossed around before. Edited August 28, 2012 by MPJMP Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted August 28, 2012 Posted August 28, 2012 Hi MPJMP, Take a look here My thoughts for a bare-bones "budget" digital M. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
earleygallery Posted August 28, 2012 Share #2 Posted August 28, 2012 What are your thoughts? I have no realistic expectation that such a camera would ever be produced either by Leica or any 3rd party, but I've never heard some of these ideas tossed around before. Actually all of these suggestions have been made here before. The problem with the digital Leica M, as we are seeing with the M8, is that an unavailable cheap electrical part can render a very expensive camera redundant. Leica have talked for some time about a 'new' live view camera. Photokina isn't far off now. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted August 28, 2012 Share #3 Posted August 28, 2012 Actually, this is a more likely "budget digital M" configuration: Fujifilm X-E1 (Credit to forum member ROSUNA, who posted original link) Exact lens mount specs open to debate - might be an "X" mount with M/R adapters and eventual "X" line of AF lenses. I think the point you miss is that the base M8/9 cameras ARE the "budget" digital Ms - they are already built as cheaply as Leica can build them. The "non-budget" Ms are the ones with sapphire screens, or hard-chrome finish, or specialized niche electronics (MM). I look at your "want list" - and everything on there would increase the cost of the cameras, directly or indirectly. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted August 28, 2012 Share #4 Posted August 28, 2012 [...]1) [...] Instead of an LCD, there would be a traditional wheel to set ISO. There would be no other buttons on the rear panel. When you think about it, other than focus, aperture, shutter speed, and ISO the only other essential setting that needs to be made is selecting the capture format: RAW, JPEG, etc. Which leads to... [...] Aw, let's just put a couple rows of DIP switches and enter the configuration in octal? [...] 4) Hybrid optical viewfinder with electronic framelines. I've been led to believe that one of the biggest costs in producing an M camera is the installation and calibration of the frame lines. Replacing these with elctronic framelines, such as used in the Fuji X series, saves money and provides for potentially more accurate and reliable framing. Why not LED frame-lines such as the Titan had, and bring up only the lines relevant to the lens. Eliminate the lens preview lever. Otherwise, given Leica's decades of RF manufacture expertise, the electronic hybrid might be more expensive. [...] 7) The weather-sealed bottom plate would be removed to reveal the battery compartment, SD card slot, and an industry standard USB connection. No. Leave a USB external. The mini-usb that Leica uses now is a standard. Moving it to the battery and card location would give them another excuse to not have a remote capability. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archiver Posted August 29, 2012 Share #5 Posted August 29, 2012 The new rumour of a so-called 'budget M' makes me wonder exactly what features could be removed and still have a functioning camera? The M9 is pretty stripped down as it is. The removal of the LCD makes the camera less functional compared with others. After all, many people use the LCD to check focus after the fact. People have grown used to the usefulness of a LCD and its omission would make an already niche camera even more of a niche product, and ironically potentially more expensive due to the small numbers produced. Look at the premium of the Monochrom over the M9. You lose the ability to take colour photos, you lose the Bayer filter, but you pay more. If Leica made a digital M out of lightweight titanium and magnesium alloy, the same size as a MP or even an M4-P body, gave it a shutter advance lever and a state of the art sensor, I'd buy as many as I could afford and probably never upgrade. But that's another bout of wishful thinking. I think the best we can hope for in that direction is a better sensor and slimmer body as technology advances. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
beewee Posted August 29, 2012 Share #6 Posted August 29, 2012 ...I've never heard some of these ideas tossed around before. Read this: Thom Hogan Considers – What's Next For Leica? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted August 29, 2012 Share #7 Posted August 29, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) 3) Shutter cocking lever. Got this idea from the Epson RD-1 from years ago. By deleting both the rear LCD and motor for cocking the shutter you would conserve a significant amount of battery power. A single battery charge might last weeks, instead of hours or days. It also replicates an important part of the classic Leica M experience lacking in the M8/9. If you'd care to search for a thread I started "Analysis ...", you'll see I lloked in detail at the power consumption of the camera in normal use. It turns out the power consumption of the motor is much less than keeping the circuitry alive while the camera grinds out a JPEG instead of just shooting raw. As for your other suggestions, old news, I'm afraid. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MPJMP Posted August 29, 2012 Author Share #8 Posted August 29, 2012 If you'd care to search for a thread I started "Analysis ...", you'll see I lloked in detail at the power consumption of the camera in normal use. It turns out the power consumption of the motor is much less than keeping the circuitry alive while the camera grinds out a JPEG instead of just shooting raw. Interesting. I would never have guessed that a software process would consume more power than a mechanical operation. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosuna Posted August 30, 2012 Share #9 Posted August 30, 2012 I think the point you miss is that the base M8/9 cameras ARE the "budget" digital Ms - they are already built as cheaply as Leica can build them. The "non-budget" Ms are the ones with sapphire screens, or hard-chrome finish, or specialized niche electronics (MM). I disagree. Leica could make cheaper Ms, by 1) replacing the optical viewfinder and rangefinder with an electronic viewfinder; and 2) replacing the expensive materials (brass top and bottom cover with chrome finish) with a more integrated full magnesium alloy body. Fuji is replacing the viewfinder in the X-E1 and that single change will allow for a lower price. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pop Posted August 30, 2012 Share #10 Posted August 30, 2012 ... cheaper Ms, by replacing the optical viewfinder and rangefinder with an electronic viewfinder .... ... thus rendering it useless for the purposes where many people prefer the M. An EVIL with M lenses might be a lovely camera but no replacement for an RF camera. 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosuna Posted August 30, 2012 Share #11 Posted August 30, 2012 (edited) ... thus rendering it useless for the purposes where many people prefer the M. An EVIL with M lenses might be a lovely camera but no replacement for an RF camera. Two cameras: a classic model and a cheaper electronic model. I would buy the electronic model and use it for the same purposes I am using the M8, plus new applications out of reach for a classic M. Edited August 30, 2012 by rosuna Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angora Posted August 31, 2012 Share #12 Posted August 31, 2012 1) NO rear LCD. I already proposed that. All I got was "non sense", "unpractical" and the like. Still a great idea, I hope it will be implemented in the future. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lm_user Posted August 31, 2012 Share #13 Posted August 31, 2012 I like the idea of removing the lcd. I am a long time PDA junkie and have purchased many over the years. In. All cases, the failure mode was the lcd screen. Now, I am hearing about M8 screen failures. I would like an LCD , but only if regular knobs could maintain the basic functions of the camera when the lcd eventually fails Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlatkob Posted August 31, 2012 Share #14 Posted August 31, 2012 No LCD? That would be an non-starter of a digital camera. The LCD is one of the best features to come to cameras since the invention of photography. It is hugely useful. If it distracts you, just turn it off. The LCD is a magnificent feature. Cocking the shutter is a part of the film Leica experience (and that of many other brands), but it is trivial part of photography. It would add about as much to the photographic experience as hand-cranking your car engine would add to the driving experience. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted August 31, 2012 Share #15 Posted August 31, 2012 Power consumption thread here... http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/80260-anatomy-leica-m8s-power-consumption.html#post839380 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted August 31, 2012 Share #16 Posted August 31, 2012 I agree that a cheaper M mount camera could and should be made, but it won't have brass components and it won't have a rangefinder. Plastic or magnesium body, EVF, focus peaking or confirmation. The trouble is that Leica still won't be able to make it cheaply enough, but it should be significantly less than a traditional M and make more sense over a 5-10 year 'lifetime' of use. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jankap Posted August 31, 2012 Share #17 Posted August 31, 2012 The expensive part of the M is the finder construction, with the distance transmission from the lens. You talk about the camera, M-lenses should be compatible. With live view there would be no finder obstruction. The finder is besides the selection of the outline of the picture THE means to measure the distance. Also the surroundings of the outline are (somewhat) visible. What if the rangefinder would be combined with the live view screen, say as a part of the screen? The next step in digitalizing. The rangefinder would be fine for the shorter lenses, live view would excel for the longer lenses. Not used is the complete mechanical/optical finder construction. Needed are 2 windows with a sensor for the range finding. M-lenses with their rangefinder coupler would work still. The finder surroundings would not be visible. A format APS-H (like the M8 with crop factor 1.3) could be better to avoid influence on M-sales. Jan Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
giordano Posted August 31, 2012 Share #18 Posted August 31, 2012 Power consumption thread here... http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/80260-anatomy-leica-m8s-power-consumption.html#post839380 Building on Mark's work I did some simple calculations earlier in the year: I don't have a film M to hand so I used a Nikon F because it doesn't have either a particularly short or particularly light wind lever travel. The lever is about 40mm long, travels about 180 degrees and needs a force of about 5N (a bit over 0.5 kgf) to move it. This means that the energy for one stroke of the lever is of the order of 0.04 * pi * 5 joules, say 0.6 joules. Mark Norton showed in his power consumption thread that the M8 draws about 200mA when idling and 600mA or more when active (shutter button half-pressed, writing to card etc.) and a lot more while winding the shutter. 200mA at the nominal 3.7V of the M8/9 battery is about 0.7 watts - which is 0.7 joules per second. In other words just to keep a M8 idling you'd need to thumb the wind lever about once a second - and triple that while it was taking a shot, processing it and writing it to the card. And that's assuming 100% efficient dynamo, power management and energy storage. The M9 is generally believed to have about the same power needs. Assume generously that the M10 needs only 10% of the power of the M8 (therefore no live view, wifi, GPS, electronic framelines or what have you) and you'd still have to crank every few seconds to keep the camera alive. Sod that for a game of soldiers! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
farnz Posted September 4, 2012 Share #19 Posted September 4, 2012 What about a different 'angle'? An M without a LCD would be virtually unworkable because of the need to be able to interact with prompts during 'housekeeping' activities such as installation and reinstallation of firmware, formatting SD cards, and resetting the camera. But I suspect that many, if not the majority of, digital camera users carry a PDA with them everywhere they go these days so Bluetooth (wireless) connectivity could be used to connect a screen-less M to a user's PDA to allow the user to carry out the housekeeping activities remotely. The Bluetooth connection would also permit remote chimping by those who wished to do so and possibly offer focus-peaking, LiveView, and a magnified TTL view although these would require a CMOS sensor and probably a third or fourth hand or advanced juggling skills. I would also support the frame advance lever to enable quieter shutter-cocking. Pete. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NZDavid Posted September 4, 2012 Share #20 Posted September 4, 2012 Any future M without an LCD seems very unlikely. Then again, Leica did produce the M Monochrom, which seems like a very unlikely camera! No matter what the specifics, I think most of us would appreciate a minimalist design philosophy, concentration on the essentials in place of loads of features, modes, and menus, and "unique selling points". Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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