wattsy Posted February 13, 2012 Share #41 Posted February 13, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) The example shown was taken with a 50 Summarit (obviously non-ASPH). 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 13, 2012 Posted February 13, 2012 Hi wattsy, Take a look here Help needed: real world M9 Moire problems. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Double Negative Posted February 13, 2012 Share #42 Posted February 13, 2012 Is the moire effect exaggerated by Asph lenses, I wonder ? Well, yes and no. Not because they use aspherical elements so much, but because "ASPH" lenses generally tend to be sharper than their predecessors. Sharper lenses exacerbate the effect as they render fine details better. But a sharp lens is a sharp lens, regardless of whether or not it's an ASPH. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nikonuser2012 Posted February 13, 2012 Author Share #43 Posted February 13, 2012 Moire is a real issue to be managed with the M9, in my experience. These pics illustrate how much of a problem it can be and whilst the colour can be removed the pattern can only be cloned away. I have many similar shots. Capture One, Lightroom and RAW Developer will not correct it. I've shown some consecutive images because these cannot easily be repeated during a moving event. The car shots can be repeated and are not important to me as such, but a product photographer might have his shoot ruined by these results. Clearly, these types of materials can be a problem with the M9 and my solution is to exchange the M9 for a film MP when I come across shiny silver suits. If you've not suffered it, that's not evidence that it doesn't exist, I'm afraid. Rolo, Any chance you can post the shot of the Benz as a raw file? Even a crop of the wall in behind it? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolo Posted February 13, 2012 Share #44 Posted February 13, 2012 Well, yes and no. Not because they use aspherical elements so much, but because "ASPH" lenses generally tend to be sharper than their predecessors. Sharper lenses exacerbate the effect as they render fine details better. But a sharp lens is a sharp lens, regardless of whether or not it's an ASPH. Thanks, I was aware of that, but as you say, Asphs do tend to be sharper and higher contrast, esp the 50mm Lux. Just wondered if a less precise lens would help. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustafasoleiman Posted February 13, 2012 Share #45 Posted February 13, 2012 Thanks, I was aware of that, but as you say, Asphs do tend to be sharper and higher contrast, esp the 50mm Lux. Just wondered if a less precise lens would help. No, a 35 summicron 35v.4 has similar issues as a summicron 35 asph. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Double Negative Posted February 13, 2012 Share #46 Posted February 13, 2012 Thanks, I was aware of that, but as you say, Asphs do tend to be sharper and higher contrast, esp the 50mm Lux. Just wondered if a less precise lens would help. Gotcha... Short answer? Yes. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolo Posted February 13, 2012 Share #47 Posted February 13, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) Rolo, Any chance you can post the shot of the Benz as a raw file? Even a crop of the wall in behind it? PM sent. Ta. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimofnyc Posted February 13, 2012 Share #48 Posted February 13, 2012 Here's another example. Reminds me of the old TV days when reporters wore ties or shirts with a fine stripe pattern. Those clothes looked like shimmering rainbows on color TV back in the day. Jim Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/172530-help-needed-real-world-m9-moire-problems/?do=findComment&comment=1925890'>More sharing options...
thighslapper Posted February 13, 2012 Share #49 Posted February 13, 2012 (edited) How often do you find moire a problem in your photos? maybe a few handful of occasions in 15k shots and even then you have to look for it..... but there again I don't do a lot of shiny suit photos or modern architecture with grilles and geometric deco..... ditto with the speckly colour problem with multiple tiny high intensity light points (usually reflections off water etc)... although this is more a sensor issue rather than anti-aliasing. with an M9 I've not found it an an issue.... and was prepared to put up with it as a trade off for clarity anyway .... can't vouch for Nikon and the sensors they use though... and I'm not sure this info is directly transferrable to another camera system ..... Edited February 13, 2012 by thighslapper Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
haroldp Posted February 13, 2012 Share #50 Posted February 13, 2012 It is a function of Bayer De Mosaicing , Pixel Pitch, and lens sharpness. As memory size and CPU power increases, advanced pattern recognition at the sensor readout level can detect and correct more artifacts of this de-mosaicing (of which moire is the most common and easily recognized but there are others). Whatever the other benefits or drawbacks, more pixels meaning smaller photosites will reduce these artifacts. At 36 mpx 24 X 36 mm sensor, lens resolution would have to be at around 110 lp/mm to trigger these. Very few lenses achieve this under real world conditions, unfortunately many of those that do are Leica. The best Nikon and Canon professional lenses will also do this, particularly when stopped down a little. Sometimes wide open in the center. .... H 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lanetomlane Posted February 14, 2012 Share #51 Posted February 14, 2012 Maybe this article will help, hot off the presses... "Anti-Aliasing Filter Primer" Interesting article and it may explain why I sometimes get a colour cast, nearly always in the sky area, on a colour image which I have converted to Black & White; previously in Photoshop CS5 and latterly in Lightroom 3. I'll do the B&W conversion and don't see a cast on my calibrated monitor. However, when I print, usually at A3 size, the colour cast is there in certain areas. Rightly or wrongly I don't spend a lot of time reading about the technical issues of digital photography/processing (maybe I should) as I would rather be taking, or printing images. However it occured to me that when the M8 photo was taken of the chart that chart would have been in B&W and yet a colour cast is apparent. Now I come to think about (dangerous) I never had the colour cast appear on D700 or D2x images. Maybe I'm adding 2 and 2 and making 5, but if anyone would be kind enough to comment I'd certainly appreciate it. ___________________ Thanks & regards, Tom Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nikonuser2012 Posted February 14, 2012 Author Share #52 Posted February 14, 2012 All, thanks for your input. I have flopped back and forth on the decision and finally settled on the D800. I think I made the right choice for my shooting needs. If anyone cares to follow my logic it is posted here: Why I chose the Nikon D800 over the D800E Again, thanks and see you in the field. Mike Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CalArts 99 Posted February 14, 2012 Share #53 Posted February 14, 2012 All, thanks for your input. I have flopped back and forth on the decision and finally settled on the D800. I think I made the right choice for my shooting needs. If anyone cares to follow my logic it is posted here: Why I chose the Nikon D800 over the D800E Again, thanks and see you in the field. Mike I'm sure you've made the right choice for your own particular needs. And that's all that matters in the end. Moire and aliasing is part of life without the AA filtering. And whether one can accept it or not is really more of a personal issue based on one's own needs, type of use, workflow, etc.. There is a visual difference however, as the AA filter can soften things up (which is what it's supposed to do): Nikon D300HR (And more examples of what to expect and the moire that can also occur: Hot Rod Visible) The D3x was produced with an AA filter. And there was a lot of talk about comparisons with it removed, etc.. Here are some examples (scroll towards the bottom): Nikon D3x Review by Thom Hogan I think Nikon simply decided to offer a choice this time around. And I think it was a good idea. It's not to 'confuse' buyers but to simply give them options (and not having to go 'aftermarket' and have the filter removed thus voiding the warranty, etc..) I have to give them credit for doing so. People who are looking for a 'general use' high pixel count DSLR have the 800. And those who want a more 'specialty use' version now have the 800E. This is a good thing and I'm glad they are offering both choices. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nikonuser2012 Posted February 15, 2012 Author Share #54 Posted February 15, 2012 I'm sure you've made the right choice for your own particular needs. And that's all that matters in the end. Moire and aliasing is part of life without the AA filtering. And whether one can accept it or not is really more of a personal issue based on one's own needs, type of use, workflow, etc.. There is a visual difference however, as the AA filter can soften things up (which is what it's supposed to do): Nikon D300HR (And more examples of what to expect and the moire that can also occur: Hot Rod Visible) The D3x was produced with an AA filter. And there was a lot of talk about comparisons with it removed, etc.. Here are some examples (scroll towards the bottom): Nikon D3x Review by Thom Hogan I think Nikon simply decided to offer a choice this time around. And I think it was a good idea. It's not to 'confuse' buyers but to simply give them options (and not having to go 'aftermarket' and have the filter removed thus voiding the warranty, etc..) I have to give them credit for doing so. People who are looking for a 'general use' high pixel count DSLR have the 800. And those who want a more 'specialty use' version now have the 800E. This is a good thing and I'm glad they are offering both choices. I'm sure the AA filter makes a difference, but I can't take the word of the site selling the hotrod mod. After all, they are trying to sell you something so it's in their best interest to make it look like you need it. Those shots of the stock D300s look suspect to me, I'm getting images sharper than that using my D90. Until there is an impartial review, it's not an easy call. The rest of the images they posted are just not very good. As for the D3x link, there is not a drastic difference between the D3x with and without the AA filter, in fact I suspect it would be hard to judge which is which at normal screen viewing sizes. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CalArts 99 Posted February 15, 2012 Share #55 Posted February 15, 2012 I'm sure the AA filter makes a difference, but I can't take the word of the site selling the hotrod mod. After all, they are trying to sell you something so it's in their best interest to make it look like you need it. Those shots of the stock D300s look suspect to me, I'm getting images sharper than that using my D90. Until there is an impartial review, it's not an easy call. The rest of the images they posted are just not very good. As for the D3x link, there is not a drastic difference between the D3x with and without the AA filter, in fact I suspect it would be hard to judge which is which at normal screen viewing sizes. What I was basically trying to say is that I think it's good that Nikon is now offering the choice. Removing the AA filter by users was not that uncommon in previous models. But each individual has to make their own choice depending on their own personal needs. Here is another example of the AA removed in a D3x: D3X test w w/o AA filter - FM Forums I'm not condoning one model or the other, but simply commenting on the fact that there is a choice now. And I like having that choice offered by the manufacturer (instead of doing it later.) And there's really no reason anyone needs to rationalize their own choice. It is what it is. You accept the pros and you accept the cons. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nikonuser2012 Posted February 15, 2012 Author Share #56 Posted February 15, 2012 What I was basically trying to say is that I think it's good that Nikon is now offering the choice. Removing the AA filter by users was not that uncommon in previous models. But each individual has to make their own choice depending on their own personal needs. Here is another example of the AA removed in a D3x: D3X test w w/o AA filter - FM Forums I'm not condoning one model or the other, but simply commenting on the fact that there is a choice now. And I like having that choice offered by the manufacturer (instead of doing it later.) And there's really no reason anyone needs to rationalize their own choice. It is what it is. You accept the pros and you accept the cons. I completely agree that having Nikon offer both is nice, no need to void your warranty if you want to go that route. I'm not sure if everyone knows the difference and Nikon hasn't said much about it. I just hope it doesn't come back to bite Nikon if users are unhappy with their selection one way or the other. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonearabiapix Posted February 15, 2012 Share #57 Posted February 15, 2012 (edited) Why not just be able to swap out the AA filter like the Mamiya ZD? Make it as simple as changing the focus screens of a viewfinder. Edited February 15, 2012 by stonearabiapix Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sp12 Posted February 15, 2012 Share #58 Posted February 15, 2012 I mean, there's the artistic attraction to false detail, but does not having an AA filter offer any tech advantages like better high incident angle correction? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nikonuser2012 Posted February 15, 2012 Author Share #59 Posted February 15, 2012 Why not just be able to swap out the AA filter like the Mamiya ZD? Make it as simple as changing the focus screens of a viewfinder. They need to save some features for the D900. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Double Negative Posted February 15, 2012 Share #60 Posted February 15, 2012 That's what's nice about certain MFDB - the option to remove the AA filter. But swapping it in and out in a small format like 35mm would be... Difficult. Just to get your fingers in there and keep everything clean, etc. At least MFDB are "wide open" and accessible when detached. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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