AlanG Posted December 5, 2011 Share #41 Posted December 5, 2011 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) With X-trays it is an accumulative dose. Even one pass will have an effect, even if it is impossible to detect. The point at which the fogging becomes a problem will differ. Not only by the dosage received, but also by many other factors. The age of the film, the quality of the darkroom light, the parameters of the development, the subject matter, etc. So the possibility must be expressed as a certain level of risk, like in "very little chance". Yes of course I know this. My point is that the difference between "very little chance" and "a possibility" is what the person was making. Maybe this is like the difference between "partly cloudy" and "mostly sunny." But since X-rays fog film to some degree with every pass through a scanner, the only issue is when the fogging becomes enough to matter to you. But if people like X-raying their film, what do I care? Edited December 5, 2011 by AlanG Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted December 5, 2011 Posted December 5, 2011 Hi AlanG, Take a look here film ruined by airport security. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
AlanG Posted December 5, 2011 Share #42 Posted December 5, 2011 (edited) Alan - where were you when there was good news to be discussed about film? As a side issue, what's your take on the deleterious effect of air travel on digital sensors? I guess that's just a myth, in your opinion? X-ray inspection at airports has been around for a pretty long time (before digital cameras) so I don't know what your point is. I had my film hand inspected quite a long time ago because I felt it was prudent to do this. I think being advised by the TSA to not have your film X-rayed in various cases is pretty good news. A traveler now can point this out to a TSA worker who balks at doing a hand inspection. This would have saved me some hassles. I have no idea why you bring up digital sensors or what it has to do with being a film photographer and protecting one's film from X-rays, which is very easy to do? :confused: I can't see why you are criticizing me for recommending people follow TSA guidelines to protect their film. If you somehow think traveling on air with a digital camera is a concern over cosmic ray caused sensor damage, keep in mind that you can see your digital images immediately after making them so it will be pretty easy to tell if you have a problem before you shoot an important assignment after getting off a plane. I don't see any practical way to protect a digital camera from cosmic rays but it is pretty easy to ask for a hand inspection of film. Edited December 5, 2011 by AlanG Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted December 5, 2011 Share #43 Posted December 5, 2011 In addition to the cosmic rays, which aren't good for photographers either, do security x-rays have any effect on a digital sensor? That's what the question was. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gvaliquette Posted December 5, 2011 Share #44 Posted December 5, 2011 I'm not a radiation physicist, but my guess would be that cosmic rays would have essentially an "all or none" response to cosmic rays, unlike the cumulative effect on film. If a cosmic ray (or X-ray) interacts with a pixel, it either behaves as visible light would, and therefore turns that pixel more or less on for the next shot ONLY, or it destroys the transistor, which would result in a FOREVER dead or stuck (always on) pixel. By the way, cosmic rays do make it to sea level on earth, it's just that there is more of them at 35,000 feet. SSoo, I do not loose sleep over 8 hours at 35,000 feet any more than I do over 1 week at sea level. Radiation physicists are welcome to correct me as needed. Effects on the photographer, on the other hand, are cumulative. Guy Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted December 5, 2011 Share #45 Posted December 5, 2011 In addition to the cosmic rays, which aren't good for photographers either, do security x-rays have any effect on a digital sensor? That's what the question was. It was? What kind of sensors do you think they use in digital radiography today? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted December 5, 2011 Share #46 Posted December 5, 2011 Every time I have a CT scan, I receive the equivalent of 400 flights to Italy. Or so I was told. The odd real flight somewhere doesn't bother me at all. And I don't worry about my film or cameras either. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted December 5, 2011 Share #47 Posted December 5, 2011 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) The interaction of cosmic rays on the silicon in the sensor is by Neutrinos only, lower energy radiation causes no damage. The low energy of X-rays will not damage a sensor at all, irrespective of the exposure. Edited December 5, 2011 by jaapv Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
haroldp Posted December 5, 2011 Share #48 Posted December 5, 2011 Yes of course I know this. My point is that the difference between "very little chance" and "a possibility" is what the person was making. Maybe this is like the difference between "partly cloudy" and "mostly sunny." But since X-rays fog film to some degree with every pass through a scanner, the only issue is when the fogging becomes enough to matter to you. But if people like X-raying their film, what do I care? I have always hand inspected. I went digital after 9/11 because airport security was much less accomodating. Before digital, I noticed that after four passes (on one trip), the differences in micro-contrast between my Nikon's and Leica's became less obvious. This is subtle I know, but folks on this forum care about subtle differences. Regards ... H Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted December 5, 2011 Share #49 Posted December 5, 2011 [...]My approach is to always ask for a hand inspection of my film. In U.S. airports, security people are required by law to hand check your film. In other nations, hand checks are a crap shoot - so I have read. I try to mail my exposed film home ahead of me. But it was not always that way. I take the film out of the boxes and place them in clear plastic bags. I had the most courteous experience entering and leaving Trinidad where I did some work. After the officer checked the film visually, a woman asked me to open the Hasselblad SWC I was carrying. She was just fascinated by the "beautiful old camera" and didn't bother with asking me to open the film chamber. But those people have what they consider very good jobs. I'm afraid most of our security people in the USA feel 'lesser than' and it's hard for them to maintain a good attitude. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
farnz Posted December 5, 2011 Share #50 Posted December 5, 2011 Now you are getting me confused. Please explain the difference between "very little chance" and a possibility? ... "Negligible" and "something worthy of consideration". Numerically they may be relatively close but notionally they're not because they're subject to emotive bias; as in glass half empty, glass half full. Let's not argue semantics. Regards, "The person". Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted December 5, 2011 Share #51 Posted December 5, 2011 (edited) Let's not argue semantics. Regards, "The person". You brought it up. Edited December 5, 2011 by AlanG Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
farnz Posted December 5, 2011 Share #52 Posted December 5, 2011 You brought it up. Alas, I'm not prepared to contribute to your juvenile game. Pete. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted December 5, 2011 Share #53 Posted December 5, 2011 It's virtually impossible to get a hand search in large parts of Europe. If the machines caused problems we'd know about it. I've taken film through several machines on a single trip. Never had a problem. From memory if film is contaminated by X-rays - by putting in checked baggage - the film had a herring bone type of pattern caused by the X-rays. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted December 5, 2011 Share #54 Posted December 5, 2011 (edited) If anyone is interested in further information, here is what Kodak has posted dated from 2003: If you're going to be traveling through multiple X-ray examinations (more than 5 times), request a hand search of your carry-on baggage. FAA regulations in the U.S. allow for a hand search of photographic film and equipment if requested. (See below for further FAA information.) However, non-US airports may not honor this request. Request a hand inspection for all motion imaging origination films. Testing shows fog on motion imaging films even after a single X-ray scan. This increased fog flattens the entire toe region of the sensitometric curve reducing shadow detail in a telecine or projected image. However, Explosive Trace Detection instruments provide no risk to motion picture films and can be used in conjunction with hand inspection to provide a non-destructive method of motion film inspection. If you're asked to step aside for a more thorough scan of your carry-on baggage, the film could be harmed if they use the more intense X-ray equipment.You should take your unprocessed film out of your luggage. (I underlined this.) The entire article: Baggage X-ray Scanning Effects on Film Edited December 5, 2011 by AlanG 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falstaff Posted December 5, 2011 Share #55 Posted December 5, 2011 I never had xray issues with my film. Not even Delta3200 or Tmax3200. Yep, I agree. I toss mine in the suitcase - no problems. Falstaff Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted December 5, 2011 Share #56 Posted December 5, 2011 As Steve points out a hand search is likely to be refused in many airports. I reiterate, unless you are going to take your unprocessed film through multiple x ray machines, it's really a non issue. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeswe Posted December 5, 2011 Share #57 Posted December 5, 2011 (edited) I try to mail my exposed film home ahead of me. Hm... Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that air mail items went through the same (read powerful) x-ray checks as checked baggage? Sending film by air mail actually seems more risky to me than putting it in cabin baggage (unless you know you would have to take the film through half a dozen airports/scans, of course). And you risk an additional pass through a x-ray scanner when they sort out your parcel/letter during the customs clearance for close inspection... Edited December 5, 2011 by joeswe Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted December 5, 2011 Share #58 Posted December 5, 2011 Well there you go! I've got a bundle of film I bought from Germany, sent to me by air mail, and I've used it on trips away, so its been through numerous scanners and the results are absolutely fine! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted December 5, 2011 Share #59 Posted December 5, 2011 "[...] as in glass half empty, glass half full./QUOTE] Whether the glass is half full or empty depends upon whether you are drinking or serving. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
useless generation Posted December 5, 2011 Share #60 Posted December 5, 2011 I traveled via Honk Kong from San Francisco. I had a M7, and a M4-2, both loaded with Tri-X 400. Each had at least a few exposures on the roll (greater than 12). When I got to my destination, in central China, I finished the rolls, in each respective cameras. When I had them developed the middle third of each roll was fully exposed. It was like someone had opened the camera, pulled out the film and rolled it back in. The cameras were in my carry on. Explain that? Exact same thing happened to me but I develop all my own B&W film so I know it was the scanner. Only thing i could think of was it only effected the frame which was wound on at the time and the one surrounding on both sides were completely fogged. I did push the film but these were the only 3 frames effected! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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