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Purple fringe problems on Leica M9


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#1 valtadoros

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 09:31

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I experience variable purple fringe problems when using the Voigtlander 25mm F4 Color-Skopar on my M9. Things do get better without the B&W UV filter on. Any suggestions;

#2 jaapv

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 10:09

Chromatic aberration compounded by the digital process, correct it in postprocessing, your raw converter has a slider for it.
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#3 Nikkor AIS

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 10:21

I first noticed the purple fringing with the M9 and the 50 1.0 Nocturnal while doing a low light project. Fortunately, I was also shooting with the Nikkor 58 1.2 Nocturnal on my Nikon D3 and it dosnt suffer from the same nasty condition.




Posted Image

Nikkor 58 1.2 Nocturnal on Nikon D3

Posted Image

Leica M9 and 50 1.0 Noctilux

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#4 jaapv

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 10:28

That is right, because the AA filter on the Nikon softens the image just enough to mitigate the problem, especially on a softer drawing lens. I have seen too many examples of Nikon and Canon shots with exactly the same fringing to accept that yours doesn't suffer of it.
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#5 Nikkor AIS

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 10:40

As if the Nikkor 58 1.2 Nocturnal is a softer drawing lens. Please:rolleyes:.


And from my experience with the Canon 50 1.0 EF and the 5D2, and the Nikon D3 with the 58 1.2 AIS Nocturnal, and now the Leica M9 and the 50 1.0 Noctilux, I would say the the purple fringing is an M9 issue, not a digital issue.

It is also possible to remove the AA filter on the D3/D3x/D3s, although I have not done so.


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#6 jaapv

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 10:48

Just google Nikon Purple Fringing. 1.850.000 hits. Canon 2.650.000...It has been discussed to the bones in all photography forums. It has nothing to do with brand partisanship - it is just a fact of digital life.

Why do you think generic raw converters have purple fringe correction tools? Just for those few cameras Leica sells?:rolleyes:

Edited by jaapv, 11 August 2011 - 10:51.

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#7 Nikkor AIS

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 11:28

Jaapv, feel free to trefer to google as the knower of all things, all you want:rolleyes:, The "fact" remains in this instance the M9 and the 50 1.0 Noctilux shot at F 1.0 clearly has purple fringing and the Nikon D3 and the Nikkor 58 1.2 Nocturnal shot @ 1.2 has none:D

As they say, the proof is in the pudding. And I like my pudding without the purple fringe:p



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#8 FlashGordonPhotography

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 11:53

It is also possible to remove the AA filter on the D3/D3x/D3s, although I have not done so.


Gregory


Yes you can. And if you do it will be more prone to purple fringing. Wide open fast lenses and weaker (or no) AA filters and you get more prominent purple fringing. I used to get it, although not as badly, on my 5D2 when shooting the 50mm 1.2 ( but not the 85 - wonder if it's more prone in wider lenses). It's worse on the M9 but even my m4/3 cameras have it with wide lenses due the thinner AA filter. CV lenses are more prone to it than Leica lenses but it's still there with most ultra fast non lenses. It's also less prominent on asph lenses.

The easiest way to eliminate it is to stop down. It's generally gone by f4. Capture one does a great job of removing it. Lightroom does a terrible job with my m9 files and I generally just remove it using the brush.

Gordon
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#9 menos I M6

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 12:40

I think, the discussed issue here is not AA filters on DSLR cameras vs the AA filterless M9 sensor, the OP is using, seeing the issue.

To set things straight: the 58 Noct-Nikkor is a spectacular lens in it's amazing abilities easily on par with the Noctilux f1, bar half a stop slower, but optically better corrected wide open, than the Noctilux stopped down to the same aperture (as accounted to it's aspherical design, allowing for better correction).

Today's RAW converters do have automatic functions, which are able, to reduce the issue to a certain degree, in certain cases even to an extent, where the final print shows no issues anymore.

Too often though, one has to work manually in the critical image zones and trick with local desaturation, color filtering, etc, to get hold of the issue on a picture to picture basis.

Jaap, read up on the Noct-Nikkor - you might even like this lens ;-)
As I wrote, it is on par in the spectacular department with the Noctilux.

Gregory, when I work for color and have to use ISO 1250 and above or have to revert for color to wide open apertures with the Noctilux, the D3 and any good, fast Nikkor lens always wins out.

I have found about this, after I had shot exclusively Leica for about a year during the nights and then had the very first night (like in really dark night) with the Noct-Nikkor on the D3.

When being accustomed to the Leica low light performance of Todays M, this combination of D3 sensor + Noct-Nikkor can be quite a SHOCK.
I would love though, that Nikon could do something about the mediocre manual focussing helpers in Today's DSLRs (reintroduce full matte screens for superfast lenses ).
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#10 mmradman

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 12:50

Purple fringing, in my experience, is related first and foremost to how lens is corrected. Here is some good use of the web to clear the issue, htttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purple_fringing

Most lenses will give PF wide open. In my own experience Leica APO corrected R lenses are pretty much free of PF wide open.

Regarding Nikon's 58mm f1.2 Noct it is probably one of the best regarded lenses and Dirk's comments are on the mark. If only I hade one I would be very happy bunny :)

Concur with Dirk, what Nikon needs to do is to offer screen options to aid manual focus.

This being Leica forum better ISO performance would be a good start, lenses are pretty much spot on :).

Edited by mmradman, 11 August 2011 - 12:55.

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#11 menos I M6

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 13:40


Regarding Nikon's 58mm f1.2 Noct it is probably one of the best regarded lenses and Dirk's comments are on the mark. If only I hade one I would be very happy bunny :)

Concur with Dirk, what Nikon needs to do is to offer screen options to aid manual focus.

This being Leica forum better ISO performance would be a good start, lenses are pretty much spot on :).


Mladen, The Noct-Nikkor is a wonderful thing.
I have followed the second hand prices of many different high speed "normal lenses" form different manufacturers, as i am interested in using them.

From all the true high performing lenses, even by Today's modern standards, the Noct-Nikkor is actually a bargain, even at Today's highly pushed prices.
It delivers performance, for a price, that seems always about 30 − 50% lower than a 50/1 in comparable condition.

For people, who are into lenses and not actually "into a brand" this lens indeed is a marvel. The only very issue for me is the total lack of commitment of Nikon for their fantastic manual focus heritage, step by step banning manual focus into the depths of history.

The Leica rangefinder is currently the best platform, to precisely and reliably focus super fast manual focus lenses.

Sorry OP :o
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#12 mmradman

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 15:21

The Noct-Nikkor is a wonderful thing.


I know of two Noct-Nikkors for sale in UK now, both cheaper than any M 50mm f1 - I will resist.

Sorry OP :o:o
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#13 Jamie Roberts

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 15:31

As if the Nikkor 58 1.2 Nocturnal is a softer drawing lens. Please:rolleyes:.


And from my experience with the Canon 50 1.0 EF and the 5D2, and the Nikon D3 with the 58 1.2 AIS Nocturnal, and now the Leica M9 and the 50 1.0 Noctilux, I would say the the purple fringing is an M9 issue, not a digital issue.

It is also possible to remove the AA filter on the D3/D3x/D3s, although I have not done so.


Gregory


Gregory,

It's actually an exposure issue, and a general digital issue, and a lens - sensor combo issue--not a particular M9 issue. It does have to do with the AA filter, and with DR (the Nikon has more), but I have plenty of examples of purple fringing with Canon 50 1.4, Canon 50 1.2, Canon 85 1.2 *and* the Nikkor 85 1.4 and 35 f2, as well as the new 50 1.4.

That's with the following bodies: 1d2, 1ds2, 5d and Nikon D3 and D3s.

I find it hard to believe the 50 1.2 MF lens won't do this too under the right conditions.

And yes--C1 would totally take care of this; you wouldn't even see if from the M9.

#14 Jamie Roberts

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 15:38

{snipped}I used to get it, although not as badly, on my 5D2 when shooting the 50mm 1.2 ( but not the 85 - wonder if it's more prone in wider lenses).{snipped}


You've been lucky :) It's all about exposure levels, too, though. The 85 1.2L is a spectacular green / purple fringer on Canon digital (but not on film):

Birefringence of EF 85mm f/1.2L II
Chromatic aberrations
(scroll to look at the example taken with the 85 1.2L (!))

On my 1ds2 and 5d, using an 85 R Lux cut down on fringing by a huge amount (flare rejection, I suspect was the cause there)--had nothing to do with APO correction (because the lens doesn't have it). But even the 85 R used to give me green fringing wide open under extreme exposure conditions.

As Jaap says, it's a fact of digital life--not an M camera defect.

Edited by Jamie Roberts, 11 August 2011 - 15:41.


#15 scrubs

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 16:11

I get a lot of purple specular highlight fringing on my 35mm summicron ASPH
and lots of purple dots in mids and shadows when I use my 50mm ASPH FLE..

When I wrote to Leica when I first had issues with the Summicron, they told
me they would work of a new lens profile for it, which would hopefully resolve
the issue. I hope they do, because I have never had so much purple issues
on my other cameras as I do with my M9 & Leica lenses.

#16 Nikkor AIS

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 17:00

There are many links in the image chain and I am sure that any given lens in question is a factor in the purple fringing issue. I stand my my statement that the Nikkor 58 1.2 Nocturnal AIS and the D3 combo dosnt purple fringe on the Nikon D3. Either does the Nikkor 28 1.4 AF-D or the Nikkor 300 2.0 IF-ED AIS for that matter.

So by saying that the purple fringing is a fact because your get it on ( ) Nikkor or ( ) Canon hardly discounts that it's not there on the lens I mentioned. Nikkor 58 1.2 Nocturnal , and the 50 1.0 EF which has no less than three Ultra high reflective index glass.

Like I said I used to own the 50 1.0 EF which I used on the 5D2 . While some might say Ya but the the Canon 50 1.2 have purple fringing... Differnt glass. Not the same thing.


http://rogaltacdesig..._uNiEw-XL-4.jpg

50 1.0 EF on Canon 5D2



As far as the Nikkor 58 1.2 Nocturnal and the Nikkor 28 1.4 AF-D I am wondering if the hand ground asperical lens elements play a key role?

http://rogaltacdesig...37_jTuAH-XL.jpg


Nikkor 28 1.4 AF-D on Nikon D3 with plenty of chrome.


It would be interesting to see/hear from someone who has the first version of the 35 1.4 II Asperical (hand ground aspherical lens elements) on the M9.

I got to get to work

Gregory

Edited by Nikkor AIS, 11 August 2011 - 17:03.


#17 Rick

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 19:37

So by saying that the purple fringing is a fact because your get it on ( ) Nikkor or ( ) Canon hardly discounts that it's not there on the lens I mentioned. Nikkor 58 1.2 Nocturnal , and the 50 1.0 EF which has no less than three Ultra high reflective index glass.

Gregory


How do you know PF is not there on those lenses? Have you shot them on the M?

Another way of looking at it, you would need to shoot the 1.0 Nocti on your D3 to see how it preforms. On the D3 it might have less PF than the Nikkor. My guess is that the D3 is more than likely doing in-camera processing that the M9 is not. Among other things mentioned already.

Further, none of this matters because you can use out-of-camera processing like C1 and it is all the same... none of this really matters at all.

I'm not sure what the point of these comparison threads are when the examples given are so flawed. They are interesting, but you can't draw conclusions from them because the variables aren't controlled or even known or even recognized to exist by the poster.

Both systems are amazingly fantastic.
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#18 Nikkor AIS

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 20:13

I know that there is no purple fringing with the Nikkor glass I mentioned 28 1.4 AF-D , 58 1.2 Noct and the Nikkor 300 2.0 IF-ED AIS on the D3. Further more I stand by the statement that there wasnt any on the Canon 5D2 with the 50 1.0 EF.

I am just getting ready to go out and take some pictures but I have thousands of images to back my statement.


Rick perhaps you can help me out here. Comparison threads are flawed because the examples are so flawed :confused:.
Perhaps the M9 file with the Noctilux in this instance. The Nikon file on D3 with the Nocturnal is fine.

I do agee that both systems are fantasic. And I love the 50 1.0 Noctilux signature.


http://rogaltacdesig...10233142-XL.jpg

50 1.0 Noctilux on Leica M9

Gregory

#19 thighslapper

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 20:54

I'm sorry .... but I am a bit confused here......

Is this really a Leica lens problem ????

It looks to me like the same 'bleeding' you get from very high contrast edges that appear in daylight as well.......

If you compare both photos the 'purple fringed' lights are much more intensely white in the centre than the Nikon picture and the overall contrast is much greater.

Looks to me like a product of the 'bleeding effect' of the sensor combined with a very contrasty high resolution lens ........

I have numerous D700 photos with this...... and the smaller the white point sources the more obvious the fringing. No amount of Chromatic Aberration adjustments can get rid of it.

I suspect the Noct Nikkor is actually mitigating the potential effect on the Nikon sensor due to its inherent 'qualities' (well, it is a 30 year old design) ;) plus any added in camera processing as stated by others.

..... and don't forget that the noct nikkor was actually designed specifically for night use to avoid the aberrations caused by point sources of light when used wide open. (Ken told me ..... because I am supporting his growing family :P)

No camera and lens system is perfect under all circumstances and for all users ...... perhaps an amusing source of nit-picking and brand sniping, but as always it all boils down to 'horses for courses' and how deep your pockets are.....

Edited by thighslapper, 11 August 2011 - 21:09.


#20 Rick

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 21:06

If you compare both photos the 'purple fringed' lights are much more intensely white in the centre than the Nikon picture and the overall contrast is much greater.


Good observation, you are right.

But, I still don't care... :)



EDIT: If, you zoom in to 400% and look at the window next to the obvious PF around the light on the 43rd floor in the Leica shot, you can clearly see a naked woman standing at the window.:eek::eek::eek:

Edited by RickLeica, 11 August 2011 - 21:11.

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