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Waiting for the 350mm lens


JMacD

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David, right after you tell everyone when the CS lenses arrive, please tell me if there will be a 350mm?

 

Yeah, I know, I shoot landscape, architecture, and portraits, but occasionally I shoot wildlife. Every spring this eagle returns to the same tree next to our house. This is the first time I have photographed it with the S and the 120mm. This is just a test.

 

This is a handheld but braced camera. 1/500 at f4, ISO320. The head was in motion and when I try this again, I will use 1/1000. The top of the head has blown out highlights so 1/1000 would handle that too. But really, I need the 350mm first, as digitally zooming is not the quality way to go. For those of you who suggest I walk toward the eagle, this was shot from my rooftop, so walking on air was the only way to get closer.

 

1. Clearly a 350mm would be useful.

2. No focus issues on this small target, and it was right next to the out of focus nearer tree branch.

 

Jack

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David, right after you tell everyone when the CS lenses arrive, please tell me if there will be a 350mm?

 

Yeah, I know, I shoot landscape, architecture, and portraits, but occasionally I shoot wildlife. Every spring this eagle returns to the same tree next to our house. This is the first time I have photographed it with the S and the 120mm. This is just a test.

 

This is a handheld but braced camera. 1/500 at f4, ISO320. The head was in motion and when I try this again, I will use 1/1000. The top of the head has blown out highlights so 1/1000 would handle that too. But really, I need the 350mm first, as digitally zooming is not the quality way to go. For those of you who suggest I walk toward the eagle, this was shot from my rooftop, so walking on air was the only way to get closer.

 

1. Clearly a 350mm would be useful.

2. No focus issues on this small target, and it was right next to the out of focus nearer tree branch.

 

Jack

 

 

Jack,

 

I shudder a bit when visualizing the size and weight of a reasonably fast 350mm :eek:

 

However I'm with you, and would likely spring for one anyway.

 

David

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I want a Leica S 350mm as well. I don't know if I would be able to afford it, but I really want more reach than the 180mm. I borrowed Al Tanabe's Hasselblad 350mm CF to try out in the Everglades and got some pretty good results. Truth be told, I really want more reach than a 350mm. However, I would be happy with a Leica S 350mm and an 1.4x - 2x teleconverter to use on both the 180mm and 350mm. And while I am dreaming, I would also like 10mm - 12mm extension tube to use with my 180 to allow closer focus (I wouldn't mind loosing infinity focus in this case).

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A 350 would be interesting and I fear, quite expensive. I would be in favor of a 2x converter which would make the 180 a 360 f7. For the time being, you can use an adapter for Hasselblad or Pentax 6x7 to S2 and have access to a host of lenses. Albeit in manual focus, the cost of entry is much lower as these platforms have reached the bottom or very near, of value. If you use this focal length for everyday assignments then it is a different story, but for most of us, it is an occasional use lens. For those occasional uses I personally would opt for the adapter route. It just makes financial sense to me, for total cost of an spare S battery + 2 Summarit lens shades + 82mm lens cap, you could purchase a mint condition Hasselblad 350 CF. Most subjects that I use this focal length on are shot at or near infinity so fast AF is not in order. Will there be a compromise in optical perfection? Yes, which can be cleaned up with software for the CA. Another option would be a Pentax 6x7 400 f4 Apo which can be had for the same price or less depending on your area. This lens has almost no CA and is a stop faster.

 

I have been testing all of my Hasselblad lenses, 40, 50, 60, 80, 100, 120, 180 and 350 on the S2 and found the results very pleasing. In fact, when comparing the Hasselblad 80 CB against the 70 Summarit, there was a very slight visual difference in performance. Now MTF charts will tell you different, true, but with real subjects, the difference is minimal. As the 70 is a focal length that I shoot a lot, then giving up the AF would not make any sense.

 

I have been told that extension tubes will not be an option for the S as it would compromise the optical chain. This was also the reason that the 100 Apo Elmarit had a matched close up lens (Elpro) for the 1:1 mag ratio.

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I figured extension tubes and tele extenders would be possible on the 180 mm because it is the only S lens in the current lineup which does not have a floating element.

The presence of floating elements would not keep anyone from using tele converters or extension tubes.

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01af

David Farkas in a previous post says this about extension tubes:

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by fotografz

Wish there were extension tubes for the S mount ... the 180 would be very interesting close up because of its incredibly beautiful Bokeh.

 

-Marc

Marc,

 

Extension tubes are not possible for most S lenses, as they use floating lens elements. Flange-to-sensor distance is critical for optimal quality and extension tubes would alter this. The 180 doesn't use a FE, but the 70 and 120 do.

 

David

__________________

David Farkas

Dale Photo & Digital

 

 

That suggests hope for the 180.

 

I haven't heard from David here yet, but I suspect he is not happy that I am asking for lenses yet unannounced, while he is still hoping for more delivery of things like the 120mm. In reality, my personal solution can be a pentax 67 400mm lens that David has for rent with a nice S2 adaptor. I could rent it many many times for my eagle shot without exceeding the cost of a S2 350mm. But I was drumming up reactions from other S2 users to see if there might be an eventual market for a long lens. Then Leica could read that level of interest and act accordingly.

Jack

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David is wrong, as simple as that. He is confusing two different things and hence, falling for a common misconception about floating elements and extension tubes.

 

As a matter of fact, an extension tube on the Apo-Macro-Summarit-S 120 mm, for example, would degrade image quality indeed—but no more than it would on the same lens without floating elements. So the notion that extension tubes must not or cannot be used on lenses with floating elements is just plain wrong. Those work with these just as well (or as badly) as with lenses without floating elements.

 

 

Regarding long telephoto lenses in general: I think for the long-term success of the Leica S system as a whole, more lenses definitely are mandatory—including long telephoto lenses. Sooner or later, Leica must bring at least an Apo-Elmar-S 350 mm 1:4.5 (or faster) and an Apo-Telyt-S 500 mm 1:5.6 (or faster), plus 1.4× and 2× tele converters. Still longer lenses are desirable but not utterly required.

 

And then there are wide gaps in the wide-angle range as well. The S system deperately needs a 45 or 50 mm lens, one or two super-wides, a fish-eye, and a few tilt/shift lenses. How about a T/S-Elmar-S 21 mm Asph and a T/S-Elmar-S 30 mm Asph? One or two super-fast lenses (say, 1:2 or 1:1.8) would be nice, too. However I guess it will take years until the line-up of S lenses is complete ...

Edited by 01af
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01af

David Farkas in a previous post says this about extension tubes:

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by fotografz

Wish there were extension tubes for the S mount ... the 180 would be very interesting close up because of its incredibly beautiful Bokeh.

 

-Marc

Marc,

 

Extension tubes are not possible for most S lenses, as they use floating lens elements. Flange-to-sensor distance is critical for optimal quality and extension tubes would alter this. The 180 doesn't use a FE, but the 70 and 120 do.

 

David

__________________

David Farkas

Dale Photo & Digital

 

 

That suggests hope for the 180.

 

I haven't heard from David here yet, but I suspect he is not happy that I am asking for lenses yet unannounced, while he is still hoping for more delivery of things like the 120mm. In reality, my personal solution can be a pentax 67 400mm lens that David has for rent with a nice S2 adaptor. I could rent it many many times for my eagle shot without exceeding the cost of a S2 350mm. But I was drumming up reactions from other S2 users to see if there might be an eventual market for a long lens. Then Leica could read that level of interest and act accordingly.

Jack

 

Jack,

 

I have no doubt whatsoever that Leica will release longer lenses for the S System. The proposed 350mm f/3.5 APO should prove to be an incredible lens, both in terms of optical performance and in size. I'd also expect to see other focal lengths introduced (possibly longer).

 

Personally, I'd love to see a 90-250mm zoom. That would be a very flexible and familiar focal length range (70-200 in 35 equiv) and would go nicely with the upcoming standard 30-90mm zoom.

 

The other option besides using a Pentax 400mm f/4 or other alternative lens is to modify some existing R lenses... just waiting for the brave soul to step forward and allow us do a mount change. The APO-Telyt-Modular system is absolutely incredible and will cover the full image circle with no vignetting. And, yes, after modification, it will achieve infinity focus.

 

David

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The other option besides using a Pentax 400mm f/4 or other alternative lens is to modify some existing R lenses... just waiting for the brave soul to step forward and allow us do a mount change.

 

This should be a relatively simple modification for many of the newer R lenses. For example the mount & aperture ring section of the 280mm f/4 APO comes off by removing 6 screws. A replacement S-mount unit shouldn't be difficult to make if the difference between the S mount register and R mount register isn't greater than the thickness of the R lens' mount/aperture ring module.

 

The APO-Telyt-Modular system is absolutely incredible and will cover the full image circle with no vignetting. And, yes, after modification, it will achieve infinity focus.

 

Is there something in the works? Even if the mount swap as described above won't work, I'd imagine Leica could make the focus modules with an S mount.

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Jack,

 

 

 

The other option besides using a Pentax 400mm f/4 or other alternative lens is to modify some existing R lenses... just waiting for the brave soul to step forward and allow us do a mount change. The APO-Telyt-Modular system is absolutely incredible and will cover the full image circle with no vignetting. And, yes, after modification, it will achieve infinity focus.

 

David

 

Would the mount to sensor distance need to be shortened to fit the S2 ie a machining of the R mount to allow this? The Modular Telyt system was a great lens, had the 280 head/1x rear and it was fantastic! Otherwise, could a mount adapter be made to fit R lenses?

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While you wait for the Leica 350, you can try some of the other offerings. Here is a shot from the S2 and Hasselblad 350 CF at 5.6 (Wide open) and at f8. There is some CA present and I am not saying that this would be the end all solution but it can get you by till a long term solution arrives.

 

Now the Hasselblad 350 SA is a better performer but the cost would be in the $11,000 + range so it would not be economical solution.

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Would the mount to sensor distance need to be shortened to fit the S2 ie a machining of the R mount to allow this? The Modular Telyt system was a great lens, had the 280 head/1x rear and it was fantastic! Otherwise, could a mount adapter be made to fit R lenses?

 

Yes, the distance has to be shortened in order to achieve infinity. This isn't a problem sine the rear of the lens is pretty much empty - there are no elements there. We have the capability to modify the lens and replace the mount with an S mount. It is not an adapter. Rather, the lens is somewhat permanently changed. Hence, my request for a volunteer.

 

David

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Yes, the distance has to be shortened in order to achieve infinity. This isn't a problem sine the rear of the lens is pretty much empty - there are no elements there. We have the capability to modify the lens and replace the mount with an S mount. It is not an adapter. Rather, the lens is somewhat permanently changed. Hence, my request for a volunteer.

 

David

That would be a very expensive and permanent modification! Those lenses are in the $10K+ range for the 400, I would wait for the S equivalent at that price.

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  • 4 weeks later...

I too look forward to a 350mm telephoto. The 180mm is simply stunning... I hope that they will have the requisite tripod attachment for the lens...

 

I like the idea of David's 90-250mm zoom and if they ever did embark on such a project, then avoid a variable aperture system: A refined updated copy the celebrated 70-180mm f/2.8 R zoomlens that was my favorite for many years would be ideal.

 

Albert :):):)

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  • 4 weeks later...

Just a quick note on Hasselblad 350s.

 

I purchased a 350 f4 FE (no shutter) online and tried it on the S2. It has much less CA than the 350 f5.6 CF wide open - f4 vs f5.6 and it is almost gone at f8. The bad news for me at least, was that the copy that I received had a separating element and is going back to the seller for a refund. The good news is that when I find another one, hopefully without the separating elements and at a good price then I will have my temporary solution solved.

 

With the wait for Leica to produce lenses, a 350 could be years down the road, this would at least tide me over for a bit while waiting and saving.

 

Worst case scenario in the 1:1 crop, no texture white against black umbrellas and sweatshirt. Not the perfect solution but for now the only one available.

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Edited by atanabe
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  • 4 weeks later...
  • 4 years later...

Jack,

 

I have no doubt whatsoever that Leica will release longer lenses for the S System. The proposed 350mm f/3.5 APO should prove to be an incredible lens, both in terms of optical performance and in size. I'd also expect to see other focal lengths introduced (possibly longer).

 

Personally, I'd love to see a 90-250mm zoom. That would be a very flexible and familiar focal length range (70-200 in 35 equiv) and would go nicely with the upcoming standard 30-90mm zoom.

 

The other option besides using a Pentax 400mm f/4 or other alternative lens is to modify some existing R lenses... just waiting for the brave soul to step forward and allow us do a mount change. The APO-Telyt-Modular system is absolutely incredible and will cover the full image circle with no vignetting. And, yes, after modification, it will achieve infinity focus.

 

David

 

David.....is this idea dead (almost 5 years and counting)....ANY FL beyond 180 and/or zoom?

 

Jeff

Edited by Jeff S
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In the meantime, I suggest you get an S-H adapter and the Hasselblad HC 300 mm f4.5 lens which works just fine on the S, with AF, Exif info etc., even leaf shutter. It is not excessively large or heavy and can be purchased at a reasonable price second hand (mine cost about 3000 Euro). In my view, an ideal solution for someone, like me, who needs a long focal length only occasionally, e.g. for safaris etc.

Edited by albireo_double
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