Leica/LUF @ P'kina in English

[delander †]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

I'm getting tired of the glass half full sentiment that's been pervading this forum for far too long, IMHO.

 

Yes I tend to agree. there will be no R solution from Leica but existing lenses can be used on modern FF Nikon and Canon cameras, surely retaining all the qualities of Leica glass?

 

When I get in a moany mind about Leica I just go and look at the pics on DPReview showing the hand manufacturing process. It reminds me how complex the whole process of building M and S cameras actually is, and then there is the lenses!

 

Jeff

[papimuzo]

Thanks Andy, for rigourness of your work. Very informative from the horse mouth.

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[andybarton]

Don't forget that you need to thank Andreas and Klaus too, as they were the ones there, or who did the initial translation into English.

[stunsworth]

I'm getting tired of the glass half full sentiment that's been pervading this forum for far too long, IMHO.

 

Same here. Time to take a sabatical I think. The first week will probably be the most difficult, but it should be easier after that.

[mooky]

I'm getting tired of the glass half full sentiment that's been pervading this forum for far too long, IMHO.

 

Well Andy,

 

You have chosen to use a 'half-full' approach by using your Leica glass on a Nikon body. I'm not knocking you for doing that - you seem to be happy with that solution, and it looks as though you have been correct to do that - but for many of us that will be a reminder that Leica just left us hanging in the wind.

 

Stick with Leica for over 35 years using the Leica reflex system, living in Leicas' 'glass half full world of promises' and see how it feels then. Now, after 4 years of digital R promises the glass looks half-full-er-emptyish. People have spent thousands of dollars on R equipment with the understanding system support would always be there. I'm not interested in defending Leica any longer - they screwed up, they have a half finished facility, angry and becoming ex-supporters....and spent 30ML on a new system that sacrificed another, and we're all supposed to be happy and satisfied?

 

You and other Administrators are to be commended for the translation and the additional efforts you put forth here - and I thank you for that a hundred times over. But Leica is another story.

[stevelap]

Actually I usually take a glass-half-full approach to most things in life, ever the optimist. That doesn't mean though, whilst acknowledging that Leica is a small company and can't do everything at once, that there isn't room for honest disappointment from time to time.

 

This is the Leica User forum and most of us are surely Leicaphiles who wish Leica well in all their endeavours. I would hope though, that it is not merely a sycophantic fan club for who's members the Company can do no wrong.

[andybarton]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

People have spent thousands of dollars on R equipment with the understanding system support would always be there.

 

Where have Leica said that support for the system has been withdrawn?

[adan]

"People have spent thousands of dollars on R equipment with the understanding system support would always be there." - mooky

 

"Where have Leica said that support for the system has been withdrawn?" - andybarton

 

I guess it depends on how one defines support.

 

I'm sure Leica supports the R system as regards service and repairs.

 

They are obviously NOT supporting it in terms on current products - and future products seem very "iffy" based on actual evidence.

 

As someone who never thought a "digital R solution" was likely once Leica killed the overall system, I could say that I can't imagine anyone in touch with reality would have held on to "the understanding system support would always be there." Regardless of what Leica said or half-said.

 

But Leica muddied the waters - and I can't even figure out why. Once the R system was dead overall, what were they protecting by multiple half-promises regarding an "R solution"? Not future lens sales. They should have just stuck to "No comment."

[mjh]

I'm sure Leica supports the R system as regards service and repairs.

They do, the best they can – we all know there are no new batteries for the DMR manufactured anymore but in general Leica does support the R system.

 

They are obviously NOT supporting it in terms on current products - and future products seem very "iffy" based on actual evidence.

Not just iffy – the R system is dead. Dead as in kicked the bucket, shuffled off its mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the choir invisibile. The R system is an ex-system. No new products, in other words.

 

And thus the adequate solution for R lenses won’t be part of the R system proper.

 

Suggesting there will be such a solution, lets say in 2012 or 2013, does not mean that there is a future for the R system after all. Rather the message sent is something like “Don’t sell off your R lenses just yet, unless you absolutely have to. There may come a time when we have a camera ready that will – among others – support R lenses, and it will do those lenses justice. But if it is a FF DSLR you are after, then by all means look elsewhere; this isn’t a market we are interested in.”

[andybarton]

 

As someone who never thought a "digital R solution" was likely once Leica killed the overall system, I could say that I can't imagine anyone in touch with reality would have held on to "the understanding system support would always be there." Regardless of what Leica said or half-said.

 

But Leica muddied the waters - and I can't even figure out why. Once the R system was dead overall, what were they protecting by multiple half-promises regarding an "R solution"? Not future lens sales. They should have just stuck to "No comment."

 

I couldn't agree more.

 

Supporting the R system is just that. It's not _expanding_ the R system to include new bodies or lenses or anything. It's looking after the R stuff that people own now.

 

They should have said, when they stopped making R lenses and had that fire-sale last year, "We have done with the R system now, folks. We can't afford to develop it any further, and thanks for your support over the years, but to carry on would probably bankrupt the company"

 

Then, if someone did come up with a solution to use legacy R lenses on a system, that would have been a real bonus. This third party could have done so with Leica's help (but behind the scenes).

 

To my mind, as someone who has more R glass than M glass, a clean break would have been a much better option than this half-baked "be patient forever" approach.

[mooky]

I'm sorry, obviously, they are providing support in repairs. As they should. I was also speaking to the system - as in there being one....that clear enough?

 

Yep, I bit on their promise or 'statements' for an digital R, especially as they wet the appetite with the DMR - but certainly with a bit of doubt based on the past. But no longer.

 

Yes, Leica muddied up the waters real-good.

[adan]

Michael - yes, well, I was being generous in including as "iffy" any possible future product that could be used with R lenses. Didn't mean to imply there was any "if" regarding the end of the system as a whole. Guess I'm as guilty as Leica in muddy phrasing.

 

But - even "There may come a time when we have a camera ready...." is just too easy to read in multiple ways (i.e. muddy), to no particular point. Leica as a company gains nothing by vagueness.

 

If Leica says "There may be a digital R-solution someday." - R users will a) buy no more new R lenses (since there aren't any), use their lenses and R bodies with film or DMRs, c) or use them on Canikons, d) or sell them and buy something else. Since "someday" is of no use for pictures today.

 

If Leica says "There will never be a digital R-solution." - R users will a) buy no more new R lenses (since there aren't any), use their lenses and R bodies with film or DMRs, c) or use them on Canikons, d) or sell them and buy something else

Edited October 6, 2010 by adan

[mjh]

But - even "There may come a time when we have a camera ready...." is just too easy to read in multiple ways (i.e. muddy), to no particular point. Leica as a company gains nothing by vagueness.

All this talk about an adequate solution wasn’t a ready-made PR statement, rather it was an answer to a question. Leica was just trying to be open about their intentions and when these weren’t yet fully formulated plans then their statements had to be just as vague. And what else could they have done? Claiming they would never dream of developing anything that would offer some degree of compatibility with R lenses would have been a lie. Or should they have avoided any commitment, saying – through gritted teeth – “We may or may not have plans involving R lenses in any way and we won’t tell you”? Maybe they should have pretended they had not understood the question; it’s a tactics that works quite well for the Japanese.

[UliWer]

...

I read that:

• They have limited development resources, and cannot raise funding for the new factory site
  
• They are going CMOS but dont know with who,
  
• They need a mirrorless approach (ie EVIL / Liveview) but dont know when
  
• There are holes in the M Lens line up that will be plugged eventually, but no date given or elluded to
  
• The S2 that cost 30M€uros to develop is selling well to amtateurs in Asia, not USA and not to professionals as they need a full lens line up
  
• The S2 in lens shutter is delayed due to the partner they selected.
  
• There appears to be demand for a chrome M but no decision.
  

...

 

...

[*]The QA of the cameras and lenses have been a problem (They appear to not wish to admit that) but they are on top of it (as I am sure they are) and they had an opportunity to say that this specifically is what they have done....and will do! They missed this opportunity

[*]The M9 and its lenses continues to sell well and outstrip production capacity. I am surprised that they have not indicated when dealers will be able to sell ex stock the M9 and its lenses.

 

I don't call this "reading", but interpretation - in a very malicious sense.

 

- Limited ressources: have you ever met someone with unlimited ressources? Dr. Kaufmann did explain very frankly that bank's conditions to give loans for the new plant were totally unacceptable. This was in 2009 - have you ever heard about the financial market during this year? He also explained that the banks have become much more reasonable now - which didn't lead him to make announcements, but his outlook for the new plant was positive. What would you call a person who loans money for very bad conditions when he gets much betters ones a year later?

 

- CMOS: They explained that there is no producer of a CMOS-sensor fulfilling Leica's demands on the market.

 

- Mirrorless approach: neither the words "mirrorless" nor "EVIL" were mentioned.

 

- "Holes" in the lens line: Mr. Daniel said that there have never been as many Leica lenses for the M as now - which is a fact. I don't know any camera system which offers you a choice of so many different lenses - by Leica and other producers, from present and past production as the M-System. Those "gaps" he mentioned as well are from my point of view gaps in a list, but not gaps for practical use. To use the word "holes" is just ignoring facts.

 

- S2: they gave numbers: world market of 6000 large frame cameras in a year. Leica has sold "a number with appoximately four ciphers" in the first 6 months. What does this tell you about the market place of the S2? They said as well that professionals are no early adopters, but that demand for testing the camera on the photokina in their special studio has been much higher than they could fulfill.

 

-S2 central shutter: the delay was caused by a breach of contract by the partner - they didn't say this, it's my interpretation. Leica is developing it themselves.

 

- Demand for chrome M9: When I asked my dealer, if he'd exspect a chrome version, he told me that demand for chrome M8 has been very low. The people from Leica said, they would analyze if there was enough demand and decide again.

 

- Quality Control: Mr. Daniel spoke explicitely on the topic of cracked sensor glasses, said that the cause was found (Kodak) and solved. He also mentioned the problem of "red edges" and announced a solution by firmware (which I confess I didn't find convincing).

 

- Lens delivery: Mr. Schopf very explicitely explained that their suppliants of special glasses, which only Leica buys, can't fulfill their demands. He asked all customers for patience but was clear that Leica would not make any compromises in their quality standards (i.e. buying other glass which is worse).

 

Please, Mr BigSplash, try to read again.

[redbaron]

He could read it a thousand times and still come to the same conclusion. Be very careful about engaging him in conversation.

[luigi bertolotti]

The very good news is the statement on M9 numbers : the fact (explicitally declared) that sales numbers have already reached the budgeted lifecycle means a lot in terms of Return On Investiment : from now,expecting the demand remains rather stable in the next 12 months, they have the breath to fine-tune some details, which is good for next buyers... so sustaining the demand...a positive circle that I hope they will catch.

 

I find a bit laughable Dr. Kaufman statement on X100 as a X1 promoter... .

 

Being not personally involved in the sentiments of R lenses owners, I find their statements rather reasonable... andt continue to think that Pana could come out with "something" around the Sony NEX concept, with FF...

 

The statement on M lenses is exactly what I'd expected from them... M lenses is a serious biz, with very demanding customers : they have a very good lineup, they will make something new some day, as they always did.

[adan]

I don't know how the following would come out if stated originally in German, but:

 

Q: "Will there be a digital solution for R lenses?"

 

A: "Anything is possible, but don't count on it."

[contaxgary]

I thank all of you for your efforts.

 

I find it encouraging to hear that they are putting immediate efforts into X1 firmware and bringing the next generation 'X' to market. This camera line fills the mid-tier market that, should Leica put together the right features/performance, could be a real breakthrough product for them. The 'X' series has the potential to put large amounts of cash back into their R&D pockets. I'm sure that they didn't miss anything with regards to the reception given to the X100. Isn't competition wonderful.

[Guest malland]

"Glass half empty or half full": more like quarter full — but then what would you expect of a tiny camera company entering digital photography, a technology-driven field in which a company like Leica must rely mostly on off-the-shelf solutions from larger sub-suplliers?

 

Success in such a situation depends on making the right design and market choices and on aiming for the right niche, with management being the scarcest resource. In this context it strikes me that placing a $30mn in R&D bet on number "x" of the roulette wheel is not the best way of using either funds or management resources, and does not inspire confidence for the future.

 

Andreas Kaufmann's statement on the Fujifilm X100 just looks silly.

 

—Mitch/Paris

Scratching the Surface©

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[stunsworth]

...it strikes me that placing a $30mn in R&D bet on number "x" of the roulette wheel is not the best way of using either funds or management resources, and does not inspire confidence for the future

 

The R&D was not meant to be on the S2 alone. It was meant to trickle down to the R10 and M10. Unfortunately the worldwide economy bombed and Leica felt that the R10 was unsustainable. I'm sure if the S2 had been in the early stage of its development it too would have been cancelled. However, if you've already spent the majority of the 30m - Euros not Dollars by the way - the question then becomes do you write all of that off, or do you push the project through to production and try to claw back at least some of the investment.

 

Leica chose the later course of action, and of course still have the R&D available for their real cash cow the M system.