jefflewis Posted September 10, 2010 Share #1 Posted September 10, 2010 Advertisement (gone after registration) Hello all, I'm interested in working out some history about my M4 which I purchased about 23 years ago. Here's an image of the camera top plate: http://aussiescan.com/jefflewis/M4.jpg The serial number shows it as one of 100 cameras built in 1967 Leica Serial Numbers: M's Sorted by Type 4/27/1967 M4 ELC 1178001 1178100 100 Apparently the ELC represents Ernst Leitz Canada. The camera is clearly marked Wetzlar Germany. So my questions are: Was it made in Canada or Germany? It it any more valueable as it's from such a small batch? Any help, ideas or other interesting historical information is greatly appreciated. Thanks, Jeff ps: here's another photo of my treasured camera: http://aussiescan.com/jefflewis/Leica.jpg Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/130878-help-with-m4-history/?do=findComment&comment=1434016'>More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted September 10, 2010 Posted September 10, 2010 Hi jefflewis, Take a look here Help with M4 History. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
chris7521 Posted September 10, 2010 Share #2 Posted September 10, 2010 It was made in Germany. If it was made in Canada it says that. Looks like they made 10,600 M4's in Germany that year. I don't believe it is anymore valuable as the other 10,100 silver M4's made in Germany that year sorry to say. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted September 10, 2010 Share #3 Posted September 10, 2010 (edited) This is a question for true experts of REAL Leitz production figures... one must always taken in account that the numbers quoted in Cameraquest, or Puts, or others' represent assigned numbers, and, for production reasons, real numberings can be slightly different. Anyway... : my idea is that your camera (one of the first M4) belongs to a batch maybe assembled in Canada, but surely with machined parts (top included) coming from Wetzlar factory: according to some authors (example : http://www.jimarnold.org/downloads/leica/leicaM4.pdf) ALL the chrome M4 come from Wetzlar, the blacks being the only with the Ontario top engraving: indeed, I don't remember to have ever seen a "standard" chrome M4 marked Canada on top. Anyway, your M4 is surely an item that has some specific interest... whether this can reflect into a add-on money value... entirely depends on the fluctuations on the market- Edited September 10, 2010 by luigi bertolotti 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k_g_wolf ✝ Posted September 10, 2010 Share #4 Posted September 10, 2010 Your camera is a VERY early Wetzlar- one, the M4 started with # 1,175,000. Where did you get the Canada-bit from ? Best GEORG 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jefflewis Posted September 10, 2010 Author Share #5 Posted September 10, 2010 Great - thanks. That's what I thought. Does anyone know what the ELC represents in the serial number list? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jefflewis Posted September 10, 2010 Author Share #6 Posted September 10, 2010 (edited) Hi - the Canada bit was from the ELC in the serial number list. I assumed it meant Ernst Leitz Canada. It's interesting that it's an early one anyways - thanks for the quick replies Luigi - thanks for the article link - very interesting! Edited September 10, 2010 by jefflewis Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k_g_wolf ✝ Posted September 10, 2010 Share #7 Posted September 10, 2010 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) Now I found the Canada link within the number- range. You seem to be right then, a rare piece ! Suppose you find the reason why, when studying J. Lager´s book. They assembled s/m- Leicas from parts delivered from Wetzlar in Canada, why not one of it´s successors ? Best GEORG Edited September 10, 2010 by k_g_wolf 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted September 10, 2010 Share #8 Posted September 10, 2010 ELC is surely Ernest Leitz Canada: btw, Puts' compendium confirms Camerquest's figures: 2nd batch of M4, 1967, 100 "ELC" items. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jefflewis Posted September 10, 2010 Author Share #9 Posted September 10, 2010 Well - that's cool. Being a Canadian, I have a Canadian assembled camera (the first M4s assembled there) and 2 Canadian lenses - 35 and 50mm Summicrons. I bought these items when I worked part time at Queen St Camera in Toronto after selling all my "heavy" Nikon gear to raise funds. I really wanted an M6 but the price was so high back then. I fell in love with M cameras for their elegance, size and quiet operation. The 35mm lens was like a tiny jewel compared to the bulky Nikon gear. Thanks for all the replies! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lars_bergquist Posted September 10, 2010 Share #10 Posted September 10, 2010 It means "Ernst Leitz Canada". The old man from the Days of Walter Mandler Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xmas Posted September 10, 2010 Share #11 Posted September 10, 2010 (edited) Hi Just because your batch does not figure in any lists - today, e.g. Leica M Investment Guide does not mean a collector would not snap it up. Noel Edited September 10, 2010 by Xmas spellun 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaybob Posted September 10, 2010 Share #12 Posted September 10, 2010 I have an M2 whose serial is ELC on the list as well, and it also says Wetzlar on the top. Mine also sports a "big" M2, much as yours has a "big" M4. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that's the sign that they're Canadian. My 35 and 90 summicron are both from the great white north as well. Jay Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaybob Posted September 10, 2010 Share #13 Posted September 10, 2010 this is in a different forum, but still relevant ElCan lenses & cameras - Photo.net Leica and Rangefinders Forum 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jefflewis Posted September 12, 2010 Author Share #14 Posted September 12, 2010 Very interesting - thanks for posting. Jeff Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted September 14, 2010 Share #15 Posted September 14, 2010 I have an M2 whose serial is ELC on the list as well, and it also says Wetzlar on the top.Mine also sports a "big" M2, much as yours has a "big" M4. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that's the sign that they're Canadian. My 35 and 90 summicron are both from the great white north as well. Jay Uhm... I've never heard of this... intriguing even if small detail... have you some visual proof of this ? Afaik, "M3" "M2" "M4" fonts have always been a little bigger than the following digits of the s/n... I'd be curios to see two tops (M2 or M4), side by side, in which the model's font look of different size... I have under my eyes my std. Wetzlar M4 (1.181.270) and its engraving looks same sized as in the above pic. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jc_braconi Posted September 15, 2010 Share #16 Posted September 15, 2010 Uhm... I've never heard of this... intriguing even if small detail... have you some visual proof of this ? Afaik, "M3" "M2" "M4" fonts have always been a little bigger than the following digits of the s/n... I'd be curios to see two tops (M2 or M4), side by side, in which the model's font look of different size... I have under my eyes my std. Wetzlar M4 (1.181.270) and its engraving looks same sized as in the above pic. Luigi, It is true... at least for the M3. (comprati questi 2 libri che ti mancano...) Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted September 22, 2010 Share #17 Posted September 22, 2010 [...]ALL the chrome M4 come from Wetzlar, the blacks being the only with the Ontario top engraving: indeed, I don't remember to have ever seen a "standard" chrome M4 marked Canada on top.- Take a look at that big auction site in the USA. Item 260665389916 Chrome, "Midland, Canada" on top. But there is something questionable. Serial is 1178010* Does that mean the top plate was replaced? That would wreck its collectible value, no? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted September 23, 2010 Share #18 Posted September 23, 2010 Take a look at that big auction site in the USA. Item 260665389916 Chrome, "Midland, Canada" on top. But there is something questionable. Serial is 1178010* Does that mean the top plate was replaced? That would wreck its collectible value, no? The well known NAME of the seller makes this item to be considered with LOT of attention... the s/n with * usually means a factory-duplicated s/n... but all the top indeed can come from the stock of Canadian spare parts this seller put his hands on some years ago... any hipotesis can be made, but I surely wouldn't pay that money for such a camera... 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ron (Netherlands) Posted September 23, 2010 Share #19 Posted September 23, 2010 What puzzles me is that all 'offical' recordings of the first production year of the M4 are stating it was 1967, whereas we could e.g. in the film about a Beatles concert in Munchen in June 1966 that a photog was using an M4 already..... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted September 25, 2010 Share #20 Posted September 25, 2010 What puzzles me is that all 'offical' recordings of the first production year of the M4 are stating it was 1967, whereas we could e.g. in the film about a Beatles concert in Munchen in June 1966 that a photog was using an M4 already..... I'm not so sure THAT is a Leica... ... RF of course... but remembers me some other camera... maybe a Ilford Witness: I doubt that in JUNE 66 there were M4 around. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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