alki999 Posted December 28, 2009 Share #1 Posted December 28, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Hi, i just bought a Sonnar 1,5 5cm with Leica LTM. The Serialnummber is 2859576, which indicates that it is made in the last month of WWII. First i was sure that it is a russian Version / fake, but now i am not sure anymore. One sign that it could be an orginal is that the triangle is small an it has an "m" on the Meterscale. Does anyone has any detail Information or pictures of this kind Sonnar ? Would be happy to get some Informations. Greetings alki999 Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/108002-sonnar-ltm/?do=findComment&comment=1166559'>More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted December 28, 2009 Posted December 28, 2009 Hi alki999, Take a look here Sonnar LTM. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
luigi bertolotti Posted December 28, 2009 Share #2 Posted December 28, 2009 (edited) Uhm... I'm not so well documentd on Zeiss LTM lenses, but I seem to remember that the Sonnar 1,5 was made with closing to f22 in the fifties ('51 or '52, before it stopped down to f16) and this could be conflictual with the s/n of your item... but this is true "in general"... could be different for the LTM version ? I do not know. Other detail to verify... it has the red T, which is distinctive of coated lenses (and they started with it, indeed, in wartime... '42 or so...) but IS the lens really coated ? It ought to be the first style "azure" coating. ... try a look here... http://www.taunusreiter.de/Cameras/Zeiss_Fakes.html Edited December 28, 2009 by luigi bertolotti Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alki999 Posted December 28, 2009 Author Share #3 Posted December 28, 2009 Thanks for answer. The lens seems to be coated, but not like the russiams lenses. My other russians lenses are defently more coated, more blue... I have another "normal" contax sonnar for the Contax II. This is an uncoated wartime sonnar, with a f22. The reasons, why i am not sure about the LTM is: 1) Are they all aluminium ? I thought all pre wartime lenses were mad of brass. 2) I found a website, which say that the indices for an orginal are:small triangle, "m" and a dot for the diatance-numbers. I have everything, except the dot for the distance numbers. 3) The mecanical finish dosn't seem to be the normal Zeiss standart.... greetings alki999 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianv Posted December 30, 2009 Share #4 Posted December 30, 2009 (edited) It looks like a "transition lens", I will speculate that it is probably German parts finished in Russia. My 272 series LTM Sonnar, disassembled: Authentic Leica Mount 5cm F1.5 Sonnar, Disassembled - Zeiss User Forums My 285 series LTM Sonnar disassembled: Late Wartime Carl Zeiss Jena Sonnar: and Been Through the War! - Zeiss User Forums A mix of transition lenses, kludges, and oddball LTM Sonnars: Sonnar Copies, Cobbled, Kludges, and Authentic - Zeiss User Forums A 1949 ZK Sonnar in LTM, German and Russian Parts: ZK Sonnar, 1949 Russian lens made from German Parts. - Zeiss User Forums I post my projects on ziforums.com. The Sonnars and early J-3's are a "hobby" of mine. Including how to make your own LTM Sonnar. http://ziforums.com/showthread.php?t=93 Edited December 30, 2009 by brianv Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianv Posted December 30, 2009 Share #5 Posted December 30, 2009 (edited) Just to add: I have worked on at least two lenses that could have been made alongside of this one. The Carl Zeiss Jena lenses with Sn below 3Million typically have "ears" on the aperture ring. The post-war lenses do not have the ears, nor do the Jupiter-3's after 1952 or so. "Ears" on a Sonnar converted to LTM: So- "my speculation" from taking apart 20 or so "LTM Sonnars", this lens is probably somewhere in the transition as German parts started to run out, and parts were fabricated to replace them. The coated Sonnars have apertures that close down to F22 starting somewhere around SN 26xxxxxx, wartime lenses. My 267xxxx in Contax mount stops down to F22. Edited December 30, 2009 by brianv Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alki999 Posted December 30, 2009 Author Share #6 Posted December 30, 2009 Thanks for the informations brian. Very helpful. But i'm a bit confused...Have the orinals "ears" or not ? Or is there a timeperiod, where they normaly have "ears" ? Maybe any rules like: 28xxx normaly with ears 1942-1943, maybe coated ? It could be, that my sonnar is a mixture of russian an german parts. Maybe the try to repair it or anything like that, or at the end of the war they didn't had enough stuff.... I took a close look to the glasses of the lenses and they seem to be orginal Zeiss, because they have 2 small "bubbles" inside, wich is normaly a sign of high quality glasses. It have someting to do with the process they used to produce the glasses at Zeiss. I have also the f22 and it is coated. I will later on make some better pictures of the lense, that you can see mor details. Anyway will my lense go (hopefully) to an Contax expert for inspection / Repair end of the week. I will ask him, if he could take some pictures when the lens is in parts... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianv Posted December 30, 2009 Share #7 Posted December 30, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) The post-war Carl Zeiss Jena 5cm F1.5 and 5cm F2 lesnes "lost" the ears for the aperture, and also had major construction changes. The rear module of the pre-war and wartime lens unscrews as a unit. On the Post-War CZJ 5cm F1.5, the rear glass is held in by a retaining ring. Take out the ring and the glass drops out. It does not have a metal fixture around it like the wartime and prewar lens.The break started at SN ~3Million. My 285x lens has ears, and also has the internal serial Numbers for the Focus Mount and the last 6 digits of the SN of the lens (found on the namering) stamped on the rear module. I suspect the glass on yours is German, and that the Russian Jupiter-3 lenses used German glass until 1955 or so. At some point soon, with a little more free time, I'm going to put up photo's showing the evolution. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alki999 Posted December 30, 2009 Author Share #8 Posted December 30, 2009 (edited) Here are some better Photos of the lenses: Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Edited December 30, 2009 by alki999 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/108002-sonnar-ltm/?do=findComment&comment=1168770'>More sharing options...
brianv Posted December 30, 2009 Share #9 Posted December 30, 2009 Can you post a photo of the back of the lens? The RF Cam of many of the "transition" lenses was left in its aluminum finish, not painted. A shot showing the Cam extended would help. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianv Posted December 30, 2009 Share #10 Posted December 30, 2009 Here is a shot of my 1949 ZK SOnnar next to my late Wartime Sonnar. Note the aperture index on the ZK is a dot, the German Sonnar has a black line. Our lenses were made within a 1000 of each other! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alki999 Posted December 30, 2009 Author Share #11 Posted December 30, 2009 Here is the Photo of the backside. Funny that your lens is so close to mine. It seems to be right that ring with the "Ears" and this alu Ring under that is russian. The Rest seems to me the same. So to make it historical correct, i should replace this Ring with one with "Ears". Another question: Do you have any Idea, How many of this lenses are circulating ? In the german part of this Forum someone also post some Photos of a collapiable f2 Sonnar, wich has also a "28xxxxx" Number. Would be intersting, why Zeiss started to produce this kind of lenses and what they were used for. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/108002-sonnar-ltm/?do=findComment&comment=1169102'>More sharing options...
brianv Posted December 31, 2009 Share #12 Posted December 31, 2009 I've read on the Internet that there were ~5,000 Zeiss Sonnars made in Leica Mount. I have two originals, the ZK Sonnar, and a Transition lens. I've worked on several more as well. If you can get a Contax Mount Sonnar, the aperture ring should go onto yours. The optics modules and threads are identical. I've converted 12 Contax Mount Zeiss Sonnars to LTM using Jupiter-3 LTM mounts. The threads, shims, and aperture rings are compatible. I've also converted eight collapsible Contax mount 5cm f2 Sonnars to LTM using Jupiter-8 LTM mounts. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alki999 Posted January 1, 2010 Author Share #13 Posted January 1, 2010 (edited) Brian, were only 5cm sonnars converted to LTM or were also other Zeiss lenses converted ? Thanks for your informations, nice to meed an expert like you.... Greetings Marc Edited January 1, 2010 by alki999 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianv Posted January 1, 2010 Share #14 Posted January 1, 2010 The Wartime Sonnar 8.5cm F2 was also made in Leica Mount. The construction is a bit different from the Jupiter-9. I have also handled a 3.5cm F2.8 Biogon made into Leica mount, probably after the war, as a prototype for the Jupiter-12. I've seen early ZK 13.5cm F4 Sonnars, and suspect there were a few of the Zeiss lenses finished in Leica mount. More "tinkering" than expert- but take enough of these lenses apart and you can denote the evolution from the Sonnar to the Jupiter series. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephanvdz Posted January 19, 2010 Share #15 Posted January 19, 2010 another 2859... with a sligtly different front ring my guess is that you will find a zeiss number on the back optical block (6 last digit of the serial number...) those 2859.... ltm are all interesting and I found a proof that at least one of them was completed before the end of the war (see a document posted on the ZICG list). Personnaly I've got 4 sonnar 1,5 in LTM... in various guise but all with true zeiss glass - a heavy one... - a bizarre one - and two 2859... one being finished (found on a IIIc red curtain with military history) and the other unfinished... I would suggest opening a repertoire of all those Zeiss LTM lenses (as in the wiki part of the Ussrphoto.com site, where very rare russian cameras are listed by their owners, it's both scientifically interesting and it offers a good protection against theft and fakes) Stephan Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/108002-sonnar-ltm/?do=findComment&comment=1193028'>More sharing options...
Schwarzer_M3 Posted March 13, 2010 Share #16 Posted March 13, 2010 Hello guys, I have a CZJ 50/1.5 that is less than 200 away from Stephans 2724xxx lens, mine is 2724972. I also own an early-1952 Jupiter-3, serial 5200121. The Sonnar is 139 grammes on the kitchen scale, but the Jupiter is 170 grammes. What about the weight of your 2724xxx Sonnar, Stephan? The Jupiter has a very yellowish glow, so it might be constructed from chromed brass? Brian has seen shots from mine (it used to belong to RFF-member endustry), though not inspected it. It has all the original-Sonnar characteristics. The serial number puts it in 1943. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianv Posted March 13, 2010 Share #17 Posted March 13, 2010 I have a Jupiter3 with the yellowish cast to it- I think it is "skin deep", like a coating on the metal. I've seen a couple like it. It's on the 1950s lenses. The 1960s lenses are a shiny chrome-like finish. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickjazz Posted July 10, 2015 Share #18 Posted July 10, 2015 Hi, i just bought a Sonnar 1,5 5cm with Leica LTM. The Serialnummber is 2859576, which indicates that it is made in the last month of WWII. First i was sure that it is a russian Version / fake, but now i am not sure anymore. One sign that it could be an orginal is that the triangle is small an it has an "m" on the Meterscale. Does anyone has any detail Information or pictures of this kind Sonnar ? Would be happy to get some Informations. Greetings alki999 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickjazz Posted July 10, 2015 Share #19 Posted July 10, 2015 Hi even though this is an old thread I thought someone might still have an interest. i recently acquired from the big auction site what was advertised as ltm czj sonnar 1.5. I asked if it had been mated to a Jupiter 3 mount and the seller was a little indignant. Told me know this wad the real deal. He cut the price twice and I was willing to take a chance on it. It is serial number 2859567 within 10 unit numbers of the lens that started this thread . It is nothing like what I expected which from the auction photos looked like Russian aluminum as on J8 and J3. The lens is all chrome over brass, no tabs, chrome cam, heavier than a summarit, coated with a very light coating maybe single hand dipped. It is quite beautiful and I have never seen a lens like it although the nikkor 1.4 shows its ancestry. The 1.5 nikkor may look even more like this one. I'll attach a few images later. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fiftyonepointsix Posted July 10, 2015 Share #20 Posted July 10, 2015 (edited) https://www.flickr.com/photos/90768661@N02/sets/72157649817525260 I've taken many Sonnars and Jupiters apart since this thread began and now own two 1950 J-3's that started life as Sonnars. J3Namering_SonnarSN by fiftyonepointsix, on Flickr There were a lot of lenses made after the war, some custom converted to Leica mount and other made in Leica mount with a very one-off quality about each. I would like to see some pictures of and with the lens. I also bought a Nikkor 5cm F1.5 since this thread began: image wise, it is incredibly close to the 5cm F1.4 Tokyo lens. ~300 made in Leica mount. Nikkor 5cm F1.5 and 13.5cm F4 by fiftyonepointsix, on Flickr The wartime Sonnars have serial numbers stamped into the internal components of the focus mount, 3-digit and 4-digit on late ones. You do not see them until taking the helical from the mount. Nikon also assigned Sn's to the focus mount on early Leica mount lenses. Edited July 10, 2015 by fiftyonepointsix Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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