meliaphoto Posted October 24, 2014 Share #1 Posted October 24, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) Hi, Recently bought the the new X and loving it. Anybody have any explanation as to why the aperture sometimes doesn't stay at f1.7 even on fully manual? Cheers Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 24, 2014 Posted October 24, 2014 Hi meliaphoto, Take a look here X (Type 113) f1.7 aperture query. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
agreenspan Posted October 24, 2014 Share #2 Posted October 24, 2014 Hi, It's designed that way. It will not open up to f1.7 with a very close focusing distance. For very close objects (inches away) I think you are at 2.4 This was done purposely to keep image quality high. Stephen Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidmknoble Posted October 24, 2014 Share #3 Posted October 24, 2014 That is correct, and at distances like 0.2 meters, an f/2.8 still gives a very narrow depth of field. However, you can easily see what f/stop you will use on the display. If you set the X to f/1.7 and then focus on something, it will tell you what it will use (f/1.8, f/2.0, etc). I've enjoyed the X Type 113, and have found the f/stop change, while not optimum, easy to work with... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
meliaphoto Posted October 24, 2014 Author Share #4 Posted October 24, 2014 Many thanks @outdoorimages and @agreenspan, much appreciated, kind regards, phil Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxx71 Posted October 24, 2014 Share #5 Posted October 24, 2014 The lens would have been bigger to allow close focussing at f1.7. I'm glad they kept the lens small. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loplop Posted October 25, 2014 Share #6 Posted October 25, 2014 Helpfully, Leica keeps the aperture wide open (no matter what distance) until you half-press, where it stops down to show resulting DoF. Try this at extreme close focus, and you will note aberrations while the lens is wide open; Leica made a sensible choice by narrowing the aperture, as the resulting images are aberration-free. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
colonel Posted October 26, 2014 Share #7 Posted October 26, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) Under 1.2 metres the lens closes down. From interview with Leica T and X product manager. "I noticed a strange phenomenon when shooting with the X. Why does the lens not shoot at f/1.7 close up? At close distance it only allows shooting at f/2.8. One goal at Leica is that we have a consistent high-quality for all focal lengths and over all focus distances. So with the new 23 Summilux, a lens tends to go down in image quality in the close focus range. We could have made the lens much larger and heavier to maintain the performance without varying the aperture. The second option is that we could have limited the close focus distance to 50 or 60cm. Or, the final option is that we allow much closer focusing distance to offer greater options for photography but stop the lens down a bit in order to maintain the highest image performance. Of course, with such a close focus distance, you can still achieve very shallow DOF. So, I think it’s not a bad compromise. We didn’t want to limit the close focus distance, but I agree with the optics designers that we, as Leica, need to maintain the best image. This is always our first priority." 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jvansmit Posted October 27, 2014 Share #8 Posted October 27, 2014 it's not a big deal for me either, and I think it's a very sensible compromise by Leica. Overall, I've been extremely impressed with the new X, and I love the files for B&W conversions. I'm beginning to question if I still really need my MM and M9 ! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
meliaphoto Posted October 27, 2014 Author Share #9 Posted October 27, 2014 it's not a big deal for me either, and I think it's a very sensible compromise by Leica. Overall, I've been extremely impressed with the new X, and I love the files for B&W conversions. I'm beginning to question if I still really need my MM and M9 ! Agree totally, I was just initially surprised as I didn't see or hear any mention of it in my research prior to purchase and couldn't get my head round the fact that it was going to f2.8 in manual mode. Like you say, it's no big deal and I'm more than happy with the results and explanation from the experts at Leica. Depending on the type of work you do, for me and my background I wouldn't replace a full frame Leica for the X. Thanks for you imput Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
euston Posted October 27, 2014 Share #10 Posted October 27, 2014 I agree that it’s a sensible compromise. The issue for me is how Leica chose to describe the lens. In my opinion, describing it without qualification as a Summilux 1.7 may, arguably, be technically correct but it is deceptive. I don’t see anything in the specifications or on the official Leica X web pages that gives the true picture - Leica X // Leica X // Photography - Leica Camera AG If Leica believes in the compromise it has chosen why is it ashamed of mentioning it in its sales material? Caveat emptor with a vengeance! It doesn't encourage me to think well of the company. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jip Posted October 27, 2014 Share #11 Posted October 27, 2014 They could've also just chosen to give it the ability to shoot at 1.7 at close focus giving bad results... Now it feels like a Apple product, protecting the 'unknowing' user from possible unpleasant outcomes... They are just protecting their holy grail Leica ass from negative replies... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
calithumpian Posted October 27, 2014 Share #12 Posted October 27, 2014 What is interesting is that in both live view and video mode f/1.7 is enabled for focussing under 1.2 meters. As far as I can tell from the 1080 video, the quality is fine. It is not that it is optically impossible, it is just that it did not meet Leica's exacting standards and so they have limited it in software. All this will be is a line of code in firmware! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
calithumpian Posted November 1, 2014 Share #13 Posted November 1, 2014 I found a way around this today... If you set aperture dial to f/1.7, focus at beyond 1.2m and push the shutter button halfway, you can adjust the focus back to a closer range while the button is pressed and it will shoot at f/1.7 all the way down to the minimum focussing distance. However, it still registers as 2.8 on the display and in metadata, but is clearly shooting at f/1.7. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
colonel Posted November 1, 2014 Share #14 Posted November 1, 2014 I found a way around this today... If you set aperture dial to f/1.7, focus at beyond 1.2m and push the shutter button halfway, you can adjust the focus back to a closer range while the button is pressed and it will shoot at f/1.7 all the way down to the minimum focussing distance. However, it still registers as 2.8 on the display and in metadata, but is clearly shooting at f/1.7. so go to manual focus whilst the button is pressed ? Can you post some pics. Interested to see! don't let Leica know they will close this loop hole! I think Leica could add a menu option in the next release to allow close focus with f1.7. that would dispense with the criticism Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
calithumpian Posted November 2, 2014 Share #15 Posted November 2, 2014 (edited) You must be in manual focus before and after the half press, there certainly is a degradation in sharpness. These are both from DNGs same processing, same 1/1000 shutter speed and ~ 25cm focus distance one at f/2.8, the other at f/1.7. So this is the extreme end of fuzzy IQ. https://www.dropbox.com/sh/5z49adsdnklas2a/AACb_L5RW7xfTHoHnLd6QHlna?dl=0 Edited November 2, 2014 by calithumpian 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
colonel Posted November 2, 2014 Share #16 Posted November 2, 2014 You must be in manual focus before and after the half press, there certainly is a degradation in sharpness. These are both from DNGs same processing, same 1/1000 shutter speed and ~ 25cm focus distance one at f/2.8, the other at f/1.7. So this is the extreme end of fuzzy IQ. https://www.dropbox.com/sh/5z49adsdnklas2a/AACb_L5RW7xfTHoHnLd6QHlna?dl=0 Thanks Difficult to tell as the exposure balance is different (perhaps your should hand slowed down he 2.8 proportionately) However it looks like there is some centre sharpness at 1.7 and the effect is actually quite nice Rgds Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecaton Posted November 2, 2014 Share #17 Posted November 2, 2014 I tried it, it doesn`t work, unless there is another trick to it.. The shutter speed clearly drops to compensate for the lens closing down from 1.7 to 2.8. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
calithumpian Posted November 2, 2014 Share #18 Posted November 2, 2014 It shouldn't effect the shutter speed. Put everything including shutter/aperture/focus on manual. Then set focus to infinity, aperture on f/1.7 and press the button halfway, then you can wind back the focus with the button still pressed and retain the widest aperture at lower focussing distances! Note this doesn't register on the display while shooting or in metadata. No I won't tell Leica - it would be great if they disabled the option by default but allowed us to turn it on again! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecaton Posted November 2, 2014 Share #19 Posted November 2, 2014 It shouldn't effect the shutter speed. Put everything including shutter/aperture/focus on manual. Then set focus to infinity, aperture on f/1.7 and press the button halfway, then you can wind back the focus with the button still pressed and retain the widest aperture at lower focussing distances! Note this doesn't register on the display while shooting or in metadata. No I won't tell Leica - it would be great if they disabled the option by default but allowed us to turn it on again! Maybe my post was not clear enough. Shutter speed goes down as the lens stops down. With other words, I can not confirm what you suggest should work. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
calithumpian Posted November 3, 2014 Share #20 Posted November 3, 2014 Maybe my post was not clear enough. Shutter speed goes down as the lens stops down. With other words, I can not confirm what you suggest should work. Sorry, I am still unsure what you mean. In both the shots below the shutter speed is the same at 1/1000, mainly to accentuate the difference in aperture even though the metadata shows f/2.8 in both images. Shutter speed does not change as the lens stops down in this way. Here are the images at f/1.7 and f/2.8 both focussed at 25cm, both 1/1000 –*https://www.dropbox.com/sh/5z49adsdnklas2a/AACb_L5RW7xfTHoHnLd6QHlna?dl=0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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