Einst_Stein Posted September 21, 2014 Share #1 Posted September 21, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) I have Leica Dlux-4 and Lumix G5 + kit lens. After several years usage, I concluded the superiority of Lumx G5 + Kit lens over Dlux 4. The difference is day and night under tough lighting conditions, such as strong back light of side light. The small sensor simply can't capture enough dynamic range. But I see similar difference between M9 and Lumix G5. I rarely need more pixel, but I almost always want more pixel depth. In this regards, M9 is in par with Hasselblad CF39 digital back, and both are much better than the 36mp FF DSLR and 24MP APS-C. Yes, the difference between M9 and such high pitch sensor is about the same as M9 vs. G5. The only reasons for me to carry Lumix G5 are its 1920x1080 video and as the caddy for my wife. She is fond of G5 but does not want to carry it. Now, my wife wants a camera as portable as her DLux 4 and as good as my M9 or G5 or something in between. I have two choices: the New Dlux or the X-vario. Sensor size wise, it seems X-vario is the choice, but I'm also tempted by DLux's f1.7~f2.8. lens. If you have put your order to the new Dlux, please come back with your comment, particularly, if you also has experiences with X-vario. Oh, please do not quote or link to any "full time" camera reviewer. It makes me sick. I'm looking for feedback of ordinary users. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted September 21, 2014 Posted September 21, 2014 Hi Einst_Stein, Take a look here Now, X-vario or D-lux?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
C Lei Lux Posted September 22, 2014 Share #2 Posted September 22, 2014 (edited) I have Leica Dlux-4 and Lumix G5 + kit lens. After several years usage, I concluded the superiority of Lumx G5 + Kit lens over Dlux 4. The difference is day and night under tough lighting conditions, such as strong back light of side light. The small sensor simply can't capture enough dynamic range. But I see similar difference between M9 and Lumix G5. I rarely need more pixel, but I almost always want more pixel depth. In this regards, M9 is in par with Hasselblad CF39 digital back, and both are much better than the 36mp FF DSLR and 24MP APS-C. Yes, the difference between M9 and such high pitch sensor is about the same as M9 vs. G5. The only reasons for me to carry Lumix G5 are its 1920x1080 video and as the caddy for my wife. She is fond of G5 but does not want to carry it. Now, my wife wants a camera as portable as her DLux 4 and as good as my M9 or G5 or something in between. I have two choices: the New Dlux or the X-vario. Sensor size wise, it seems X-vario is the choice, but I'm also tempted by DLux's f1.7~f2.8. lens. If you have put your order to the new Dlux, please come back with your comment, particularly, if you also has experiences with X-vario. Oh, please do not quote or link to any "full time" camera reviewer. It makes me sick. I'm looking for feedback of ordinary users. hi, sorry for my limited english I use the google translator my current cameras: > D-Lux 6 (1/1,7-sensor) and X Vario (APS-C-sensor) various predecessors: > D-Lux (1/1,7-sensor) > V-Lux 2 and 3 (1/2,3-sensor) > Lumix G1 (MFT-sensor). My recommendation: the new D-Lux (Typ 109) Reason: Leica Lens + MFT-sensor, as well as the maintenance of multi-format design and manual acces opportunities. (aperture, shutter, exposure compensation, focus ....) kind regards klaus-michael Edited September 22, 2014 by kmhb Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
colonel Posted September 22, 2014 Share #3 Posted September 22, 2014 I have used M4/3s cameras extensively, including the E-M5, E-M1 and GX1. Their low light performance is a step about the 1" and smaller sensors, but DR advantage is not noticeable when compared to the Sony RX100 series. However it is still not great IMHO. I try to shoot the E-M1 at 800 or below. I have used the X-Vario. Its low light performance is better then the latest M4/3s but is still not fantastic. I prefer to use it 1600 or less. for maximum accuity both the XV and E-M1 I prefer to use at ISO 400 or below The fuji X-trans have better low light performance, in fact probably the best low light performance of APS-C but at the loss of some detail, even at lower ISO Comparison with the M9 is tricky. I have used it successfully up to ISO 2500, but I prefer pushing 640 in lightroom. I would say the ISO performance of the X-Vario is better when the photos are fresh out of the camera but I find I can restore more detail in the M9 at 1250 then say 1600 on the XV. In summary I would prefer the XV sensor over M4/3s but ultimately the ISO advantage of the XV sensor is probably not more then 1 stop and you have to add in the extra flexibility of the longer zoom, more light and smaller size of the LX100/D-Lux I do thing the colours and DR out of the APS-C sensor is also better but again not massively I strongly suggest comparing sensors in DXOMARK Lastly you may want to consider a second hand T and zoom lens as well as it is the same sensor as the XV but has no AA filter, so more detail, and also a change to have a higher light lens in the future. rgds Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom0511 Posted September 22, 2014 Share #4 Posted September 22, 2014 I think the X-Vario has the Advantage of a larger sensor, probably better (but much slower) lens, and an "analog" user Interface. I guess the new D-Lux will be a Little like my GM1 with a faster lens. Advantages of the D-Lux should be the faster lens, built in viewfinder, faster AF (I assume). The faster lens (with more DOF at comparable f-stop) also means you can shoot at lower ISO. I have to say as a second camera as addition to the M9 I would probably rather go with the D-Lux. I expect the D-Lux to be a faster and more flexible camera in smaller size, and the X-Vario to be somewhat bigger and slower to use, but with the edge in IQ. Even though I own a X-Vario and a RX100 my choice as a compact is the X2 at the Moment. Ist the camera that survived my Rx1, X100, Nex,.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
!Nomad64 Posted September 22, 2014 Share #5 Posted September 22, 2014 Wait first for some user's opinion about the new D-Lux, even better try to grab some RAW files to see for yourself what's the camera's actually capable of, then you'll want to decide. Just my 2c€. Cheers, Bruno 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjb Posted September 22, 2014 Share #6 Posted September 22, 2014 "I'm looking for feedback of ordinary users. There soon should be several l-forum readers who simultaneously own/shoot both X-Vario and the new D-Lux, and can therefore share with us their identical shots (RAW please) at various ISO settings, together with their real-world observations. My guess is that, despite the inclination to compare these two overlapping zoom models head to head, we will find that they co-exist in Leica's lineup - without generating disruptive levels of customer confusion or sell-down (from the X-Vario to the less expensive D-Lux). Of course, the D-Lux will probably sell in far higher volume than the X-Vario, but that is to be expected due to price and size - and the impressive video. My reason for saying they can co-exist is based on what I believe are several advantages for the X-Vario, such as its M-class lens with excellent IQ, highend materials/build quality, traditional feel/handling, sensible M-like user interface, and of course, sensor size/IQ. Now admittedly, I haven't used the new D-Lux yet, so I too am eager to try it and compare things for myself. And yes, the D-Lux certainly has many valuable features of its own which not found in the X family! In fact, I think the new D-Lux is probably the exciting D2 successor that we've all been asking for (thank you Leica - and Panny)! Meanwhile, the X-Vario seems to me the clear bridge model between Leica compacts and traditional Leicas. In fact, I think this is why Leica was tempted to promote it as "mini M" - despite the obvious fact that it lacks the M's rangefinder and interchangeable lenses. But the X-Vario occupies a special highend niche and serves as an important bridge, and I believe that Leica should retain and enhance the X-Vario within their future X family lineup. PS: One final wildcard in all this talk is the T, which, depending upon market acceptance of it's new touch screen interface, plus Leica's own engineering resource constraints, might generate a re-shuffling of Leica's lineup plans. But based on what I observe today, I suspect that the X-Vario and the T will also co-exist. Just my guess, however! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjans Posted September 22, 2014 Share #7 Posted September 22, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) Also consider the user interface. Next to the X Vario I also own a C typ 112. The manual of the C is more than 200 pages and I find the menu on the X Vario much easier to use. Let's wait and see how the new D-Lux is in practice. Best 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
richfx Posted September 22, 2014 Share #8 Posted September 22, 2014 I had and returned a D-Lux 6. Didn't care at all for its CMOS sensor and very pronounced digital smearing. Colors were off IMO as well. I shot RAW with it. Thus I'm not interested in its successor. Rich Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonoslack Posted September 22, 2014 Share #9 Posted September 22, 2014 They seem like chalk and cheese to me. But not having used the D-Lux I can't really help, other than to say that they are completely different cameras - I'm sure the faster lens and image stabilisation on the D-Lux will much more than make up for the slightly larger sensor of the X-Vario. . . . . but the shooting experience of the X-Vario will be much more 'analog', and of course it has more mp as well, and probably a much better lens (the restricted Aperture will have engendered fewer design compromises). 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einst_Stein Posted September 22, 2014 Author Share #10 Posted September 22, 2014 "High ISO is just an opinion, high dynamic range is the fact." I don't care much about the high ISO, but I care a lot about the dynamic range. The high ISO performance let me shoot handheld to capture the dark shade, with the cost of washed out highlight. The high dynamic range (high pixel depth) performance can cover both end better. In my shooting, I don't have much problem to have a tripod , (table top, in fact), so high ISO is not very attractive. But high dynamic range So my first thought is, I'd get X-vario. But Dlux's fast lens (f1.7~2.8) and 4K video is also hard to resist. Oh, yes, the external EVF is annoying, but that's a low compromise concern overall. I'm also afraid that Leica soon may offer the upgraded X vario, -- with faster lens. That would be a nightmare. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom0511 Posted September 23, 2014 Share #11 Posted September 23, 2014 Why not check out the T? I have used both X-Vario and T and like the T better than I had expected. The T has a better viewfinder, you can put a fast lens on it for low light photography, and in the future you can even put a Telelens on it. Also the T Zoom has a longer range and is slightly faster, plus T AF is slightly faster. It doesnt look as classic as the X but it feels very well in the Hand and even for an M-User like me the touch screen user Interface works pretty good. (Better than I thought) 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
colonel Posted September 23, 2014 Share #12 Posted September 23, 2014 I just have this nagging feeling, without any evidence, that the shooting experience of the X-Vario will be so much better then the D-Lux (with the power zoom - yeauch!!) Not to say the D-Lux isn't a great camera, but I never get on with over menued power zoom techno cameras. The RX100 for example is, arguably, the best small compact, but I never enjoy that much using it. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
C Lei Lux Posted September 23, 2014 Share #13 Posted September 23, 2014 I just have this nagging feeling, without any evidence, that the shooting experience of the X-Vario will be so much better then the D-Lux (with the power zoom - yeauch!!) Not to say the D-Lux isn't a great camera, but I never get on with over menued power zoom techno cameras. The RX100 for example is, arguably, the best small compact, but I never enjoy that much using it. hi, I use on my D-Lux 6 the step-zoom modus, 24/28/35/50/70/90mm, perfekt. the funktion is like a manual zoom, no problem. D-Lux (Typ109) with step-zoom, I dont know. kind regards klaus-michael Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonoslack Posted September 23, 2014 Share #14 Posted September 23, 2014 I just have this nagging feeling, without any evidence, that the shooting experience of the X-Vario will be so much better then the D-Lux (with the power zoom - yeauch!!) Not to say the D-Lux isn't a great camera, but I never get on with over menued power zoom techno cameras. The RX100 for example is, arguably, the best small compact, but I never enjoy that much using it. Hi Harold I have the same nagging feeling, and exactly the same feelings about the RX100. Still, I guess I'll give it a go . . as for the X-Vario, Emma's is here to stay, she certainly wouldn't swap it for a D-Lux Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonoslack Posted September 23, 2014 Share #15 Posted September 23, 2014 So my first thought is, I'd get X-vario. But Dlux's fast lens (f1.7~2.8) and 4K video is also hard to resist. Oh, yes, the external EVF is annoying, but that's a low compromise concern overall. I'm also afraid that Leica soon may offer the upgraded X vario, -- with faster lens. That would be a nightmare. I think it's really unlikely that a new X-Vario would have a faster lens . . . but I guess they might release one with the new EVF? Still I doubt it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom0511 Posted September 23, 2014 Share #16 Posted September 23, 2014 Hi HaroldI have the same nagging feeling, and exactly the same feelings about the RX100. Still, I guess I'll give it a go . . as for the X-Vario, Emma's is here to stay, she certainly wouldn't swap it for a D-Lux Another Rx100 not being used in my shelve. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrware Posted September 23, 2014 Share #17 Posted September 23, 2014 hi, I use on my D-Lux 6 the step-zoom modus, 24/28/35/50/70/90mm, perfekt. the funktion is like a manual zoom, no problem. D-Lux (Typ109) with step-zoom, I dont know. kind regards klaus-michael If it doesn't have step-zoom, it's out of the running for me. I'm leaning toward the X though. Looking to simplify. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
XVarior Posted September 23, 2014 Share #18 Posted September 23, 2014 Take her to Leica store, put both cameras in her hands and let her pick the one she fell in love with. She'll most probably leave that store with the XVARIO hanging around her neck:-) No way to compare in my opinion, the XV is way more of a camera. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
C Lei Lux Posted September 23, 2014 Share #19 Posted September 23, 2014 in my opinion:- either or = no, but both = yes. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einst_Stein Posted September 23, 2014 Author Share #20 Posted September 23, 2014 Why not check out the T?I have used both X-Vario and T and like the T better than I had expected. The T has a better viewfinder, you can put a fast lens on it for low light photography, and in the future you can even put a Telelens on it. Also the T Zoom has a longer range and is slightly faster, plus T AF is slightly faster. It doesnt look as classic as the X but it feels very well in the Hand and even for an M-User like me the touch screen user Interface works pretty good. (Better than I thought) The most useful T lenses would be the 18-56zoom asnd 23mm prime. But for the same price I can get both X-vario and X2. The two pieces X set would be much more useful. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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