Leica X1/2 or the Ricoh GR

[owen27]

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Hi all,

 

Am looking at a APSC compact camera and have been going to and fro these models.

I understand the Ricoh is more compact and pocketable, however the biggest downside to me is that it's made in china thus i question its quality control.

Also there is slight body size with leica x1 being smaller than x2.

 

Thus i seek advice whether the x1 and x2 size is not differentiable and if they are as pocketable as the gr. I am very new and usually use jpeg and rarely post process. (maybe in future i will) love b&w. would like a camera that can last me.

Ease of use is impt. tend to analog rather thatn menu driven... i think in this aspect advice from experience photographers the experience of learning photography with leica all it is made up of?

[Ecaton]

Hi all,

 

Am looking at a APSC compact camera and have been going to and fro these models.

I understand the Ricoh is more compact and pocketable, however the biggest downside to me is that it's made in china thus i question its quality control.

Also there is slight body size with leica x1 being smaller than x2.

 

Thus i seek advice whether the x1 and x2 size is not differentiable and if they are as pocketable as the gr. I am very new and usually use jpeg and rarely post process. (maybe in future i will) love b&w. would like a camera that can last me.

Ease of use is impt. tend to analog rather thatn menu driven... i think in this aspect advice from experience photographers the experience of learning photography with leica all it is made up of?

 

All three are excellent cameras with very good IQ, premium build, lots of strengths, a couple of quirks and warts, and as far as the Leicas are concerned yesteryears performance (AF, file write and review time, start up and shut down speed). I strongly recommend to go to a camera store and handle the GR and X1/X2. For learning, the X1 and X2 are probably the better tools with their manual controls and simple menus. The X2 allows to mount an EVF which can be very useful e.g. in very bright light or for precise focusing. Make sure you feel comfortable with the focal length the fixed lenses of these cameras provide, i.e. 28mm for the Ricoh and 35mm equivalent for the Leica respectively. 35mm is "more versatile".

Edited June 4, 2014 by Ecaton

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[CaptZoom]

If you don't post process, the Fuji X100 series maybe a better fit for you (Fuji's X series have one of the better JPEG rendering engines), though they are more pocketable than the Leica X1/2 (which are only coat-pocketable). If size is of paramount concern, the Ricoh deserves strong consideration.

Edited June 4, 2014 by CaptZoom
added info

[owen27]

Thanks so much for the very detailed and informative answer. Helps alot!

[CaptZoom]

CORRECTION

If you don't post process, the Fuji X100 series maybe a better fit for you (Fuji's X series have one of the better JPEG rendering engines), though they are NOT MUCH more pocketable than the Leica X1/2 (which are only coat-pocketable). If size is of paramount concern, the Ricoh deserves strong consideration.

[HarryW]

Owen,

Suggest that you search Ming Thein's Blog and his Camerapedia section.

He has used all three cameras that you mention quite extensively and I'm sure that it will assist you in coming to a decision.

I was considering the Ricoh GR but at 28mm it is not wide enough for my needs. I'm waiting for the D-lux 7 for wide angle for work and the X3 for everything else.

[Archiver]

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I understand the Ricoh is more compact and pocketable, however the biggest downside to me is that it's made in china thus i question its quality control.

Also there is slight body size with leica x1 being smaller than x2.

 

Thus i seek advice whether the x1 and x2 size is not differentiable and if they are as pocketable as the gr. I am very new and usually use jpeg and rarely post process. (maybe in future i will) love b&w. would like a camera that can last me.

Ease of use is impt. tend to analog rather thatn menu driven... i think in this aspect advice from experience photographers the experience of learning photography with leica all it is made up of?

 

Regarding quality control of the Ricoh GR: I frequent the DPReview Ricoh forum, and ricohforum.com. There is barely a peep from anyone about a faulty GR. It just does not seem to happen. I have a GR and it is a solid, reliable camera.

 

I briefly had a X1, and while it is small, the protruding lens barrel does get in the way of some pockets. The GR is very nice to hold and is almost infinitely customizable with two function buttons and reassignable effects button.

 

Black and white jpegs from the GR are very good, and there is an in-camera raw development function. It allows you to take the raws that you have shot, and process them in-camera using any of the listed effects, like cross processing, black and white, black and white high contrast, bleach bypass, positive film, and more. Each effect can be adjusted individually for saturation, contrast, vignetting and sharpening.

 

The X1 does have a great manual control system. One dial for shutter speed and one for aperture. The dials mean that you can set the camera when it is off, and it will power up to those settings instantly. On the other hand, the GR has control wheels and rockers that are akin to a DSLR, albeit in a much smaller package. And you can set the GR to power up to a manual configuration, although you would have to set it when the camera is on.

 

The GR also acquired a firmware update in the last couple of days that makes it the fast daylight focus even faster, and significantly improves low light focus time. It even has a very useful crop mode that gives a 28mm, 35mm and 47mm crop, even in raw mode. It's like having three cameras in one. I've assigned the crop mode to one of the function buttons, so I can quickly toggle between them whenever I like.

 

If you are able, definitely try to handle the GR and the X1/X2. Find out which feels better to you.

[owen27]

Thanks archiver for your reply.

I guess just overly concern where the camera is made.

What your experience with GR does appropriately address what I am looking for actually.

I have been reading lots online but that just serves to confuse.

The size of the GR really is quite nice!

 

What you mentioned really puts some of my concerns at ease though! Thanks a bundle!

[leicaphilia]

Owen,

 

I have an X1 (after having sold an x100) as my digital camera and use it often. I think its the closest thing you are going to find to a traditional film camera in digital. I do use mine with a 35mm optical viewfinder (the SBLOO) and its experience feels very familiar as a long time M user. It also feels very solid in the hand, well built.

 

AF can be slow in low light, but with the firmware update (2.0) manual scale focusing is very easy and effective.

 

I sold the x100 simply because I didn't like the ergonomics of the camera - too menu driven and frankly, confusing. The X1 seems much simpler, which appeals to me. If your concerns are with IQ, no problems there. The X1 files are very nice, certainly on par with the X100 or NEX 5n.

[wda]

Owen, while I enjoyed my original Ricoh GR, especially its ergonomics, I have owned an X1 since first release. It is still in regular use despite adding the X Vario. It is simply a joy to use with a top lens and outstanding results if used with thought. It has a quirk or two, partly cured in X2, but optically the results are almost indistinguishable. At current prices the X1 has stabilised and is popular with first-time buyers, for good reason. Do try and visit a dealer who has stock.

[timde]

Hi all,

I understand the Ricoh is more compact and pocketable, however the biggest downside to me is that it's made in china thus i question its quality control.

 

I have a Ricoh GR sitting here, the build is great, the feel is great. My made in Japan X-Pro1 felt like a tin can in comparison.

[nameBrandon]

I have a Ricoh GR sitting here, the build is great, the feel is great. My made in Japan X-Pro1 felt like a tin can in comparison.

 

Seconded.. I have the Ricoh GR right here as well. I love this camera, it's great for pretty much everything except high-iso work (anything above ISO 1600 to me is terrible). I had a Fuji X100s and I sold it in favor of the Ricoh. Far smaller, better built, and much more configurable.

 

When I want to shoot street and not risk the M-E in crap weather, I take the Ricoh. When I'm just heading somewhere with the family and want a camera for whatever may come up, I take the Ricoh. Restaurants? Ricoh.

 

The only thing that I hate about the Ricoh is the fact that you don't get an external battery charger. I picked up an extra charger and 2 batteries for ~$30 USD.

[Nick_S]

It even has a very useful crop mode that gives a 28mm, 35mm and 47mm crop, even in raw mode.

While I can understand the 35mm and 47mm crops for viewing and out-of-camera JPEGs, I don't see the point of cropping the raw file and losing the original information. The Canon S95 offers a 3:2 crop mode, but with the actual raw file one can still move the crop marks for this rectangle up and downwards in the original 4:3 image. This is great if one wants to tweak what appears at the edges of a shot slightly later back at the computer.

 

Nick

[Archiver]

While I can understand the 35mm and 47mm crops for viewing and out-of-camera JPEGs, I don't see the point of cropping the raw file and losing the original information. The Canon S95 offers a 3:2 crop mode, but with the actual raw file one can still move the crop marks for this rectangle up and downwards in the original 4:3 image. This is great if one wants to tweak what appears at the edges of a shot slightly later back at the computer.

 

It's as useful as you want it to be, as long as you think of it as converting the camera from a 28mm 16mp aps-c to 35mm 10mp m43 or 47mm 1" sensor camera, but with the same image quality of the original aps-c sensor. You won't get that in a m43 or 1" sensor camera. The point of a crop is obviously to be able to frame in that focal length, rather than recompose later.

 

I've read that the original sensor data when using the crop modes is available in a particular raw processor, not sure if it is DXO or Aperture. Not Lightroom, unfortunately.

 

The GRD III was the camera I carried everywhere from 2009 to 2013, and was the complement to my M9 and every other camera I used in that time. As time went by, it moved from primary camera to secondary and backup. But the GR, with its aps-c sensor, amazing image quality and the usual ergonomic loveliness, has become a primary camera once again. I can rely on it for many photographic duties from street to family, and even a bit of work. I often carry the GR in lieu of the 28mm Elmarit for my M9, as it is that good.

[Nick_S]

I've read that the original sensor data when using the crop modes is available in a particular raw processor, not sure if it is DXO or Aperture. Not Lightroom, unfortunately.

If that is true, then that would allow for slight adjustments to framing in post-processing I spoke of. There is no need to throw out the original sensor information just because one framed a specific crop on the camera's screen. Working with the raw file in software, the original photographers intention can still be retained by the system and indicated as a framing rectangle superimposed on the wider sensor capture (as occurs with the Canon).

 

Nick

Edited June 5, 2014 by Nick_S

[waloszek]

Owen,

Here is some information on my Ricoh GR (which complements a Leica X Vario and a Ricoh GXR): Ricoh GR: Introduction

Best regards, Gerd

[cpclee]

I owned and loved the X1. Now I have the GR. The GR is a much better camera IMHO.

 

The X1 is capable of fantastic image quality usable up to ISO 800 or 1600. X1 images have a very nice sparkle to it that one also sees in the finest M lenses (eg. 50/1.4 ASPH). Its other charm is that it has a simple and elegant interface. But I struggled with its slow AF speeds throughout the 3 years that I owned it.

 

The GR is infinitely customizable. It has a snap mode that's superb for grab shots. (One way to trigger the snap mode is by pressing the shutter button all the way down without first half pressing. The shutter immediately fires with focus set to a customizable pre-defined distance. So useful for reacting to the moment.) It has image quality rivaling X1 (though with a more subtle color palette), and can shoot in 28mm (16MP) or 35mm (10MP) modes. (Notice that in 35mm mode it still has the same resolution as an M8! There is also a 47mm mode but I try to stay above 10MP.) The AF, especially with the new firmware released yesterday, is instantaneous in bright light and very fast in low light. Usable ISO is to me up to 3200. It has a very useful AF/AE lock button / lever. The lens is extremely sharp and has very bokeh. B&W looks quite rich and convincing straight out of the camera. It handles fantastically and is superbly built. Most of all it's so pocketable. I wear it in a leather case on my belt whenever I go to places. The X1 is too large to be worn on a belt of in the pocket of your jeans.

 

Hope this helps.

Edited June 5, 2014 by cpclee

[cpclee]

I also need to mention that my X1 broke, twice. The first time was that the thumb wheel would rotate freely, and it was repaired under warranty. The second time was that the lens would not extend, and Leica US charged me over $700 for it. (They needed to replace the whole lens-sensor unit.)

 

One eventually learns that Leica's with electronics and motorized moving parts are never going to be cheap to repair. Keep that in mind.

 

I have had no issue with the Ricoh GXR, GR, and GR Digital (ver. I) that I've owned. A GR1v that I owned had humidity problem though was fixed for $120 or so years after the camera went out of production. I've liked how Ricoh approach their service / support and their dedication to building niche enthusiast cameras.

[cwolffensperger]

And did you consider the Fuji X100s? Also a wonderfull camera with astonishing results!

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[nameBrandon]

And did you consider the Fuji X100s? Also a wonderfull camera with astonishing results!

 

It's a good camera, no doubt. Size wise though, it's much larger than the x100s. I find the AF to be faster on the GR, though I primarily use the GR with snap focus. Ultimately I sold the x100s and kept the GR, I preferred the ergonomics and customization of the GR, the IQ was very similar between the two.