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Downsizing?!?


!Nomad64

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Hello everyone folks,

 

as much as I love my M9 and her 4 lenses kit (24/2.8, 35/2.5, 50/1.4 and 90/2) and the results they deliver I recently realized that when it comes to trekking, backpacking, cycling and daily commuting, they're just too much. I mean the whole set is too bulky and too heavy to take around nonchalantly and if it's packed it takes time before I extract the camera and mount the lens I deem best at what I want to shoot. Several times I missed some shots just for this reason. I quit free climbing some time ago so that's an issue less, but that doesn't really change my problem.

I was therefore considering to get myself a compact camera with a fixed lens, something really light and pocketable but however ensuring good quality files in order to have it always at hand no matter the activity I'm engaged into.

 

I ruled out the Fuji X and Olympus OMD series because they are just as bulky as the M9 and have lesser sensors and optics. I also ruled out Sony A7 and RX1 mainly for costs reasons and because I'm under the impression that compared to the simple linearity of the M8/M9, Sony menus are quite complicated and quirky.

 

As a Leica user, these are the only viable options to me, all with their pros and cons:

 

- Leica XVario

- Leica X2

- Leica D-Lux 6

 

Pros XV: exceptional lens, the best aperture and focusing commands, zoom increases flexibility of use, good jpegs straight out of the camera (normally I shoot RAW, but if jpgs are good enough, when travelling I could just upload the jpegs with a minimum PP and save the RAWs for later PP once at home), it's a real Leica.

Cons XV: quite as bulky and heavy as the M9, slow lens, the most expensive solution

 

Pros X2: a very good lens, good jpegs straight out of the camera (see above), light, compact, pocketable and inobtrusive, it's a real Leica, her design reminds me a lot the Barnack cameras I love so much.

Cons X2: fixed focal length and a bit too tight for me (I'm more towards wideangles). I must however admit that when the only available tool is a hammer almost everything can be viewed as a nail...

 

Pros DL6: a very good lens, fast and with the best focal length excursion (24 to 90 is just perfect for me), good files considering the sensor size, the lightest and the most compact and pocketable of the three, cheapest solution (even more if buying the Panasonic LX7), best close-up performance

Cons DL6: sensor small size, quirky commands, it's a rebadged Panasonic with an extra charge for bearing the red dot.

 

The ideal camera would have been one the size of the X2 and the lens of the XV but as this is not possible I'm still wondering what would be the best solution to suit me.

I'd be also tempted to do as this guy did

Street Photography Beijing style — MACFILOS

namely using the X2 as the main camera and the LX7 as a backup and for when going 24 or 90 is really necessary.

 

I'd appreciate to read your comments, opinions and suggestions. It's very likely that there are other alternative solutions and angles to cover and that I missed them.

Also if you think I'm nuts you're kindly asked to please say so in a polite manner...

 

Thanks in advance,

Bruno

Edited by !Nomad64
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Hello everyone folks,

 

as much as I love my M9 and her 4 lenses kit (24/2.8, 35/2.5, 50/1.4 and 90/2) and the results they deliver I recently realized that when it comes to trekking, backpacking, cycling and daily commuting, they're just too much. I mean the whole set is too bulky and too heavy to take around nonchalantly and if it's packed it takes time before I extract the camera and mount the lens I deem best at what I want to shoot. Several times I missed some shots just for this reason. I quit free climbing some time ago so that's an issue less, but that doesn't really change my problem.

I was therefore considering to get myself a compact camera with a fixed lens, something really light and pocketable but however ensuring good quality files in order to have it always at hand no matter the activity I'm engaged into.

 

I ruled out the Fuji X and Olympus OMD series because they are just as bulky as the M9 and have lesser sensors and optics. I also ruled out Sony A7 and RX1 mainly for costs reasons and because I'm under the impression that compared to the simple linearity of the M8/M9, Sony menus are quite complicated and quirky.

 

As a Leica user, these are the only viable options to me, all with their pros and cons:

 

- Leica XVario

- Leica X2

- Leica D-Lux 6

 

Pros XV: exceptional lens, the best aperture and focusing commands, zoom increases flexibility of use, good jpegs straight out of the camera (normally I shoot RAW, but if jpgs are good enough, when travelling I could just upload the jpegs with a minimum PP and save the RAWs for later PP once at home), it's a real Leica.

Cons XV: quite as bulky and heavy as the M9, slow lens, the most expensive solution

 

Pros X2: a very good lens, good jpegs straight out of the camera (see above), light, compact, pocketable and inobtrusive, it's a real Leica, her design reminds me a lot the Barnack cameras I love so much.

Cons X2: fixed focal length and a bit too tight for me (I'm more towards wideangles). I must however admit that when the only available tool is a hammer almost everything can be viewed as a nail...

 

Pros DL6: a very good lens, fast and with the best focal length excursion (24 to 90 is just perfect for me), good files considering the sensor size, the lightest and the most compact and pocketable of the three, cheapest solution (even more if buying the Panasonic LX7), best close-up performance

Cons DL6: sensor small size, quirky commands, it's a rebadged Panasonic with an extra charge for bearing the red dot.

 

The ideal camera would have been one the size of the X2 and the lens of the XV but as this is not possible I'm still wondering what would be the best solution to suit me.

I'd be also tempted to do as this guy did

Street Photography Beijing style — MACFILOS

namely using the X2 as the main camera and the LX7 as a backup and for when going 24 or 90 is really necessary.

 

I'd appreciate to read your comments, opinions and suggestions. It's very likely that there are other alternative solutions and angles to cover and that I missed them.

Also if you think I'm nuts you're kindly asked to please say so in a polite manner...

 

Thanks in advance,

Bruno

 

i was in the same boat with a DSLR and a backpack full of beautiful but heavy Canon L lenses. When I first saw the leica X2 I was hooked and it was that camera that i wanted to accompany me on my outdoors trips "backcountry ski, hiking, biking" I also had a look at the Delux-5 at the time and didn't like much but then, the XVario was introduced. I tested it and i was immediately sold. now I simply don't leave home without it, no matter where or what I'm doing, This camera is always with me. Startling from every angle.

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While the XV is as bulky as the M9 with lens attached, you would still gain some weight and bulk savings because you would not have to take extra lenses with you. So there is some weight savings right there.

 

My personal experience with the XV - even though it is bulky for a Leica body, coming from a world of Nikon and Canon SLR bodies, I have found the XV to be super light and compact. I bought a small bag to carry just the camera, some extra batteries and SD cards, and have to say that it's very liberating!

 

You mention the excellent X2 as an option, but comment that it's fixed focal length may not be wide enough. Going with an X2 and a Leica D-Lux 6 is a great option, but the two together are probably close to the same bulk as the XV by itself. And you already have fixed length lenses in your arsenal. The XV gives you a zoom, something you don't have now, with excellent image quality.

 

The D-Lux 6 is a fine camera, but it has a small sensor. The image quality is good, but you have to keep that in mind when making your decision. It is best used as a companion to something else, if image quality is the largest concern. It does go wider than the XV (24mm vs 28mm), so that is an advantage for the D-Lux 6.

 

At the end of the day, all are really good in their own way. You can't go wrong with any of them, but I would select the XV (and have selected it for my own use). It gives you a zoom, something you don't have now (and wouldn't get with the X2). It's image quality is outstanding. The OOC JPGs are really good. It handles well, and is just enjoyable to shoot.

Edited by Feudal1
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Don't forget products from Ricoh and Samsung and possibly the new Canon G1X mk 2.

Right now I'm having a lovely time with a Sigma DP3M but it's really only useful as part of a larger kit.

There are so many high IQ cameras around now for the "lighter" traveler and all started by Sigma and our own Leica X1.

 

For me sensor size does matter and I rarely use my m4/3 kit any more. On the other hand Sony's 1" sensor in the RX100 used in good light performs way beyond expectations.

Enjoy the search.

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Don't forget products from Ricoh and Samsung and possibly the new Canon G1X mk 2.

Right now I'm having a lovely time with a Sigma DP3M but it's really only useful as part of a larger kit.

There are so many high IQ cameras around now for the "lighter" traveler and all started by Sigma and our own Leica X1.

 

For me sensor size does matter and I rarely use my m4/3 kit any more. On the other hand Sony's 1" sensor in the RX100 used in good light performs way beyond expectations.

Enjoy the search.

 

In addition to my XV, I have the RX100 and Ricoh GR, and can attest to both of them being excellent cameras. However, both have their limitations, as well as specializations. The RX100 is an excellent, small-sensor camera that fits in your pocket. The nice thing about the RX100 is that it's sensor is larger than most cameras in its class - 1". The GR has a fixed focal length of 28mm (35mm equivalent), which can be limiting, depending on how you're planning to shoot. However, the GR has excellent image quality, has amazing B&W modes and output, and has a certain special quality to its OOC JPGs.

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Why not buy a good used X1 and work that with your M9 with one complementary lens? I retained my X1 when upgrading to XV and am very glad I did. There are times when photography is not on the agenda and taking the X1 provides insurance against possible missed photo-opportunities.

 

For such a camera, 35mm equivalent focal length is an excellent compromise between fairly wide angles, while still doing well with portraits. Going wider reduces that versatility.

 

Although I probably wouldn't do it, I would make it my exclusive travel camera for some trips, as several members have done most effectively. Search and find some excellent examples.

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Thank you very much all of you guys for this first batch of replies, very very much appreciated.

 

@ XVarior & Feudal: thanks for yr input, the XV is very tempting an option and possibly the most complete of them all. The only thing I'm not totally convinced about is the size. I saw it in a shop and it seemed very big, almost the same size of my M9.

 

@ Sfage, Nippa & Feudal: thanks for suggesting the alternatives. I'll do my homework.

 

@ MarkP: thanks for the input and appreciated the idea of backup + faster lens, but all in all that would be the overlapping of two zoom cameras more or less covering the same excursion. To me the combo X2 + DL6 or XV alone would make more sense.

 

@ Wda: thanks for the input. I considered getting an used X1 myself, to see if I liked it and for cheaper than an X2, but slow autofocus drove me away.

Back in film days I used to go with an R5 + 24 + 50 + 180 + duplicator and a Contax G1 to fill in the 35 hole. But those were different days and now I wouldn't want to do that anymore. Backpacking or trekking with that burden would heavily tax my body and cycling sets unsurmountable volume limits. Sometimes I traveled with the Contax alone and I felt quite comfortable about that, hence the idea of the X2 as main camera with eventually the DL6.

I also thought about taking the M9 with the 24/2.8 (my favorite lens) and the 35/2.5 only, which would be less bulky and heavy if compared to the combo M9 + X1/X2. I wouldn't have the backup camera either.

 

So thanks once more, I'll meditate more.

Bruno

Edited by !Nomad64
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If you want M9 quality in a smaller MUCH lighter package then it has to be the XV....

 

To be honest, anything much smaller gets too fiddly to use ..... and if you want that degree of pocket/portability then you might as well use a high end mobile phone.....

 

If I don't have the XV in my hand or round my neck it goes in a Lowepro Streamline 100..... which despite being padded is only 20x15x9cm and will take an XV with room for the EVF (cased) plus spare battery etc. You can hardly call that bulky or inconvenient.

Edited by thighslapper
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If you like the Leica workflow, ergonomics, and brand then there is no choice in my mind. The XV. And although it is larger than the X2 it is not as large as the M cameras and weighs much less. Like Rori (XVarior) I carry mine everywhere and hardly notice it on my shoulder. The image quality continues to astound me. One of the best investments I ever made.

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I've had and used the Ricoh and the Fuji X and have sold them both - 'nuff said?

 

Now I have the X Vario and the X2, and for the moment can't envisage any change. I was blown away (well almost) by the OOC jpegs from the XV when in Vietnam recently and found the zoom very handy for travel. It's a great camera, better than many give it credit for.

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Thank you very much for these further feedbacks, guys.

 

@ thighslapper & Likaleica: you got your point, so much that I'm quasi-sold to the idea of getting the XV.

Some days ago I went uphills for a walk. For the usual weight containment reasons I brought the M9 with the 24 only.

It did well but on some occasions I wish I had with me the 35 and 90 too, so I wondered what would I have preferred to have with me, the XV or the X2 and the DL6?

The X2 would have done it right where the 35 cuts were required and then I'd have switched to the DL6 to go either 24 and 90.

For sure the XV would have been the best in terms of user's feeling and uncompromising quality. But if I had used the DL6 would I have really missed the XV in the end? How much good should be "good enough" for me? I mean I started wondering if I really need all the quality I'm after.

 

I'm not a pro and it's unlikely I'll become one in short terms. Therefore I have no stringent requirements but those I imposed myself mainly to titillate my ego (or to impress ladies).

I have no assignment to cover. Even if I ever made it to publish something on a magazine, these are usually in A4 or 8.5"x11" and not made of photographic paper, so if they're publishing iPhone shots, then DL6 files should already be OK and the X2/XV way overkill.

 

Furthermore, being an amateur photographer 2.0 nowadays essentially means posting and sharing on line.

But almost all forums have file size limits and downsizing inevitably levels the differences between different cameras.

 

I usually do not print but if I ever wanted to, according to Imaging Resources I could get "excellent 24 x 36 inch (60 x 90 cm) prints at ISO 100/200/400" from the XV whereas with a DL6/LX7 "ISO 80 shots look great at 13 x 19 inches (33 x 48 cm). Prints made at 16 x 20 (40 x 50 cm) are fine for wall display". All of them are large enough for me.

The differences between the XV and DL6 files are there to be seen by the discerning photographer but not by the final observer unless this one is an unrecoverable nerd who checks prints with a magnifying lens to check their resolution instead of looking at the photos.

 

So I'm still stuck with the question "Do I really need all that quality?" And this applies to owning the M9 too...

 

@ Lucis Pictor: I wish you were right. It's exactly the same thing I thought when I switched from the Nikon D300 to the M8. But still there's something left to do. The bag with the camera, 4 lenses, spare batteries and external finders weight about 3,3 Kgs. If I travel by car or RV or I go to a resort where I'll spend my vacation then it doesn't matter, but if I have to carry that burden walking paths uphills or crank it up the severe ascents that are here in my place or I have to move from place to place when backpacking then it becomes an important figure and at the end of the day it makes the difference between a tired body and a sore body.

 

@ spylaw4: your combo's an interesting possibility that I didn't consider. The XV as the most powerful solution and the X2 when pocketability is an issue but quality is required. This would ultimately solve the dilemma of which one of the two to get. The fact that the two share some hardware like the viewfinder is an added bonus. Regrettably is the most expensive of the solutions and in my current financial state it cannot be accomplished at once, so I've got to choose.

 

@ stevesurf: I did as it would have been the non plus ultra, but ruled it out because the lens itself is very rare and too expensive for my tastes.

 

Thanks again guys for your support. I still don't know what to do. I know I won't be wrong with any of the cameras, but I still have to come to terms with my actual requirements and clean my clocks.

 

Cheers,

Bruno

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I ruled out the Fuji X and Olympus OMD series because they are just as bulky as the M9 and have lesser sensors and optics. I also ruled out Sony A7 and RX1 mainly for costs reasons and because I'm under the impression that compared to the simple linearity of the M8/M9, Sony menus are quite complicated and quirky.

 

- Leica XVario

- Leica X2

 

Pros XV: exceptional lens, the best aperture and focusing commands, zoom increases flexibility of use, good jpegs straight out of the camera (normally I shoot RAW, but if jpgs are good enough, when travelling I could just upload the jpegs with a minimum PP and save the RAWs for later PP once at home), it's a real Leica.

Cons XV: quite as bulky and heavy as the M9, slow lens, the most expensive solution

 

Pros X2: a very good lens, good jpegs straight out of the camera (see above), light, compact, pocketable and inobtrusive, it's a real Leica, her design reminds me a lot the Barnack cameras I love so much.

Cons X2: fixed focal length and a bit too tight for me (I'm more towards wideangles). I must however admit that when the only available tool is a hammer almost everything can be viewed as a nail...

 

 

My 2 cents

 

1. I agree with ruling out the M4/3s system (I have used EM-1 and EM-5)

 

2. Fuji X is more difficult to rule out as its a great system. However I chose the XV over the X-E2&18-55m due to the smaller size, silent shutter, ergonomics & menu and lens. If you want more lenses then of course its a different story

 

3. Have a look at the XV again. It a fair bit lighter and smaller then both the M9 585g or M240 680g then lens, tri-elmar 340g or 35mm summicron 279g. So M is 864-1020g and XV is 625g.

Also note that the width and height of the M9 139x80mm vs XV 133x73mm

The ISO performance of the XV is much better then the M9 and on par with the M240 (perhaps 1/2 stop behind depending on the scene)

I use it without the EVF or leather protector in stealth mode and no one gives it a second glance

 

4. I don't use jpgs, sorry can't comment. The raw is fabulous from the XV. I use lightroom

 

5. The X2 is very good, and has some advantages, namely its more pocket size and cost advantage (which could be important to you) and the special editions available!. However I picked the XV due to:

5a. The extra zoom range and prime type quality is a real winner.

5b. f2.8 is only 1/2 stop better then the f3.5 of the XV at 28mm.

5c Tthe XV has a weaker AA filter. I do indeed find it sharper then the X2 I used to have.

5d. I also like the ergonomics better on the XV, but that's personal.

5e. The lens on the XV doesn't extend on switching on, meaning that it switches on faster but is also more subtle when required

 

best rgds

Edited by colonel
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Ricoh GXR can be bought for next to nothing. You can get the M mount too. As an added bonus, it is incredibly light.

 

I agree. The Ricoh GXR plus A12 M mount + EVF mount weighs 426 g. If you were to use with it an ASPH 28 mm Elmarit f2.8 lens (effective focal length 42 mm), the total weight would be about 600 g.

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After a few years of carrying the M9 and at least two lenses in a shoulder bag on a daily basis, I began my downsizing process after buying the Ricoh GXR. The aps-c modules like the 50, 28 and Leica M-mount were capable of great photos in a much smaller package. And ergonomically, Ricoh cameras are great. Although this wasn't my intention, I found myself carrying the GXR half the time, and leaving the M9 at home.

 

But I wanted something weather resistant, so I bought the Olympus EM-5 and Panasonic 12-35mm lens. This is a great combination; the image quality doesn't have the same 'richness' as the Ricoh aps-c modules (and definitely not like the M9) but it still does an excellent job.

 

But even that was a little cumbersome after a while, especially with the larger lenses and grip, so I am currently using the Ricoh GR and Panasonic LX7 as my daily carry combo. The M9 stays at home (sniff, sigh) unless I know I want the best image quality. However, I was very surprised to find that the Ricoh GR's image quality comes disturbingly close to the M9 and Zeiss 28/28. Not quite the same colour signature or razor sharpness, but close enough to make me notice.

 

The LX7 is also an excellent camera, especially for landscape work in good light. You'd be surprised at what you can pull out of the LX7 with Lightroom. I find that the combination of the GR and LX7 covers most of my everyday shooting needs, and in a very small and quite economical (compared with Leica) package.

 

I think the XV is a lovely camera, although I still haven't bought one as yet. I tested the XV and GR on the same subjects once, and at 28mm, I like the GR's output more. The GR is far smaller, less expensive, and can be converted to 21mm with the Ricoh adapter. I found the GR with 21mm adapter was close to the M9 with Zeiss 21/2.8, too.

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Guest DrPix

I think that all who wait for Messiah-T are waiting for Godot:) Buy X Vario while the prices are lower and you can now cut a good deal! T 701 will be much more expensive (with lenses) and there´ll be a "rush" for X Vario, which means higher prices, especially when there´ll surely come a new firmware. My 2 cents:)

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