Sean Reid's X1 Part 2 Review is up

[c6gowin]

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FYI. Sean (http://www.reidreviews.com subscription site) has posted another excellent review. This time it is a follow-up on the X1 and it includes critical look at things that matter to me such as AF speed, shutter lag, image quality, etc. I am already familiar with the most important feature of the X1 which is its small size having handled the camera at PhotoPlus.

[barjohn]

I love Sean's photography and his reviews are generally excellent but this is one of the first reviews of his that I have read where I felt his bias toward Leica was evident in his review. The first thing I noticed was that most of the photos were taken at f8, thus the advantage of having a 2.8 lens and shooting wide open were almost never illustrated. Was this because the AF was so bad he couldn't trust it when wide open? Sean seemed to gloss over the AF performance by saying it was no worse than most small sensor cameras. I could have said the same thing about the EP-1 but the truth is that in many cases it was too slow and even at its price point it was too slow, much less at the $2K price point. On the other hand he downplays the GF1's faster AF. Having shot both the GF1 and the EP-1 I can tell you the difference is significant. On MF Sean again downplays the very poor capability of the camera. In this regards the LL review was much more forthcoming. The poor LCD quality for MF use isn't even mention by Sean though it is by Michael. Try using MF facing a bright sunlit scene and you will see that it is nearly impossible without an EVF. Having a light blink to indicate focus isn't much better than having the camera beep. The question is where is the focus I want to see it. Also, I don't want to shoot at f8 to compensate for poor AF or the inability to pick my focus point. With the GF1 and its EVF I can precisely pick my focus point and at 10x magnification ensure that I have achieved the optimal focus. With its poor resolution LCD and from Michael's description, its lack of brightness you can't achieve this same level of MF precision with the X1.

 

Maybe Leica will fix the shutter lag in release firmware but maybe they won't and the kind of performance the X1 is showing is what seriously hurt the Sigma's sales. Poor AF, crappy LCD and sluggish response is what kept me from buying the DP1 and then the DP2 when Sigma failed to fix these issues in the DP2.

 

What I saw were X1 weaknesses downplayed and it's strengths emphasized with just the opposite done to its competitors. I thought Michael's review was the more balanced even though he is an acknowledged Leica fan.

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[Guest stnami]

not so kind here http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-x1-forum/105810-x1-field-report-free-site.html

[nhabedi]

I've now read both reviews that appeared today, Sean Reid's as well as the one on Luminous Landscape. My personal "executive summary" is that the IQ of the X1 and its high ISO performance is excellent and without competition in the compact camera area, but that it has far more usability quirks than I'd be willing to tolerate. I think this is sad as I had high hopes for the X1 and liked the concept. May the X1 find enough buyers (I won't be amongst them) and thus encourage Leica to release a follow-up model (call it X1.2, X2, or whatever) with the same or better image quality but even more geared towards "ambitious" shooters - for example faster AF or usable MF, no shutter lag, integrated viewfinder.

 

The good thing, I think, is that none of the obvious competitors so far (Sigma, Ricoh, MicroFourThirds) has a package that is totally convincing either. Each has its strengths, but also its weaknesses. There's obviously room for improvement which could mean a better model from someone else (Samsung, Nikon, Canon?) or a better "second generation" model from one of the companies already mentioned. My take (and hope) is that the "small camera, large sensor" market is just beginning to become interesting but still in its infancy.

[ottocrat]

nhabedi, having also read both reviews, I totally agree with your analysis. The IQ sounds to be everything we could have expected and wished for; but with much more mixed picture when it comes to the camera's functionality. I'm particularly bothered by the shutter lag being registered and by what sounds like an overly-complicated focusing system (though I don't really understand it from its description).

 

In short, the reviews so far fall well short of the universally glowing praise I'd been hoping for (and perhaps naively half-expecting).

 

I think I'm going to have to revisit my preorder and think a bit more carefully about the alternatives.

[Guest stnami]

Yea it never dawned on me that they would get the AF wrong............. and a statement about the ricoh does not bode well but there is snap mode

[Ecaton]

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Old DP2 doesn't look to bad in comparison. The Ricoh GRX with fast pancake/large sensor module could better them all. But then, the X1 looks so cute........

[nhabedi]

Old DP2 doesn't look to bad in comparison.

 

It ain't that old...

 

The Ricoh GRX with fast pancake/large sensor module could better them all.

 

I wouldn't hold my breath. They've just announced one large sensor module (which IMHO makes the camera far too big to be considered "small") and they'll probably have to look first if the camera itself is a success and which module the customers prefer. Something like, say, a fast 35mm equivalent lens would probably be considered too similar to their current 50mm offering.

 

Anyway, whatever lens/sensor module they'll come up with and notwithstanding the fact that Ricohs are pretty good in terms of usability, the GRX will always have the typical digicam user interface with mode dials and so on. One of the things I liked best about the X1 was that it was different (and "old-fashioned") in this area.

[ottocrat]

Yeah, the Ricoh just isn't pressing any buttons for me at all. The module thing looks ingenious but clunky. That 50mm lens module looks big.

 

I think I need to ponder again from first principles what exactly it is that I want from my next camera. While the trade-off between size and image quality no longer seems to be a problem, the trade-off between size and functionality (especially when it comes to focus) does.

[sean_reid]

I love Sean's photography and his reviews are generally excellent but this is one of the first reviews of his that I have read where I felt his bias toward Leica was evident in his review. The first thing I noticed was that most of the photos were taken at f8, thus the advantage of having a 2.8 lens and shooting wide open were almost never illustrated. Was this because the AF was so bad he couldn't trust it when wide open? Sean seemed to gloss over the AF performance by saying it was no worse than most small sensor cameras. I could have said the same thing about the EP-1 but the truth is that in many cases it was too slow and even at its price point it was too slow, much less at the $2K price point. On the other hand he downplays the GF1's faster AF. Having shot both the GF1 and the EP-1 I can tell you the difference is significant. On MF Sean again downplays the very poor capability of the camera. In this regards the LL review was much more forthcoming. The poor LCD quality for MF use isn't even mention by Sean though it is by Michael. Try using MF facing a bright sunlit scene and you will see that it is nearly impossible without an EVF. Having a light blink to indicate focus isn't much better than having the camera beep. The question is where is the focus I want to see it. Also, I don't want to shoot at f8 to compensate for poor AF or the inability to pick my focus point. With the GF1 and its EVF I can precisely pick my focus point and at 10x magnification ensure that I have achieved the optimal focus. With its poor resolution LCD and from Michael's description, its lack of brightness you can't achieve this same level of MF precision with the X1.

 

Maybe Leica will fix the shutter lag in release firmware but maybe they won't and the kind of performance the X1 is showing is what seriously hurt the Sigma's sales. Poor AF, crappy LCD and sluggish response is what kept me from buying the DP1 and then the DP2 when Sigma failed to fix these issues in the DP2.

 

What I saw were X1 weaknesses downplayed and it's strengths emphasized with just the opposite done to its competitors. I thought Michael's review was the more balanced even though he is an acknowledged Leica fan.

 

I won't respond to all of this but reread my review carefully. The MF problem does not come from the LCD per se but from the way the camera is manipulating its aperture. My choice to use F/8 for many of those pictures outdoors in sunlight had nothing to do with AF. Beyond that I'm not going to debate your comments point by point. Your sense of what is downplayed/emphasized is your own. All those aspects are discussed, measurements are presented, etc. Specific weaknesses and strengths, as I experienced them. are all covered - often in detail.

 

Your post makes me wonder if you had a chance to just skim the review or to read it carefully. If the former is the case, I recommend taking some time to reread it very carefully as it covers a lot of ground, including various timed results for example, that are worth thinking about. Re-reading it, you may notice the discussion of what really seems to be going on with the LCD based MF (with this preproduction firmware).

 

Cheers,

Edited November 12, 2009 by sean_reid

[sean_reid]

nhabedi, having also read both reviews, I totally agree with your analysis. The IQ sounds to be everything we could have expected and wished for; but with much more mixed picture when it comes to the camera's functionality. I'm particularly bothered by the shutter lag being registered and by what sounds like an overly-complicated focusing system (though I don't really understand it from its description).

 

In short, the reviews so far fall well short of the universally glowing praise I'd been hoping for (and perhaps naively half-expecting).

 

I think I'm going to have to revisit my preorder and think a bit more carefully about the alternatives.

 

The scale focusing system is quite simple and quick to use. The MF challenges comes when one is focusing on screen and they could potentially be addressed in production firmware that changes the way the camera handles auto-aperture. It's that latter issue, not the screen itself, that makes on-screen MF tricky as of this preproduction firmware.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

Edited November 12, 2009 by sean_reid

[coup de foudre]

The scale focusing system is quite simple and quick to use. The MF challenges comes when one is focusing on screen and they could potentially be addressed in production firmware that changes the way the camera handles auto-aperture. It's that latter issue, not the screen itself, that makes on-screen MF tricky as of this preproduction firmware.

and then there is your thumb, Sean...

 

the misplacement of that wheel is huge.

[sean_reid]

and then there is your thumb, Sean...

 

the misplacement of that wheel is huge.

 

As you know from the review, I do agree that it is a weakness. Michael didn't mention it so I imagine it didn't bother him but it was a problem for me. Adding the grip may move fingers around enough that the hold can work better. This is something they can't fix with firmware. Several of the other weaknesses could potentially be improved significantly with firmware changes. We were using beta firmware of course so the tweaking is still going on.

 

You obviously did more than skim the review. <G>

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[sean_reid]

I won't respond to all of this but reread my review carefully. The MF problem does not come from the LCD per se but from the way the camera is manipulating its aperture. My choice to use F/8 for many of those pictures outdoors in sunlight had nothing to do with AF. Beyond that I'm not going to debate your comments point by point. Your sense of what is downplayed/emphasized is your own. All those aspects are discussed, measurements are presented, etc. Specific weaknesses and strengths, as I experienced them. are all covered - often in detail.

 

Your post makes me wonder if you had a chance to just skim the review or to read it carefully. If the former is the case, I recommend taking some time to reread it very carefully as it covers a lot of ground, including various timed results for example, that are worth thinking about. Re-reading it, you may notice the discussion of what really seems to be going on with the LCD based MF (with this preproduction firmware).

 

Cheers,

 

I'll add that I don't normally use AF with any camera when I photograph people out in public. As a rule, I work zone focused at about F/8 (except for small sensor cameras where I'm closer to F/4) - it is a working method and not a comment on AF at all. You'll see it in many, many of my reviews.

[Ecaton]

As you know from the review, I do agree that it is a weakness. Michael didn't mention it so I imagine it didn't bother him but it was a problem for me. Adding the grip may move fingers around enough that the hold can work better. This is something they can't fix with firmware. Several of the other weaknesses could potentially be improved significantly with firmware changes. We were using beta firmware of course so the tweaking is still going on.

 

You obviously did more than skim the review. <G>

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

 

The wheel is exactly placed where my thumb naturally rests with he DP2. Looks like a real challenge for manual mode/zone focusing. By the way, great read, Sean, as usual.

[sean_reid]

The wheel is exactly placed where my thumb naturally rests with he DP2. Looks like a real challenge for manual mode/zone focusing. By the way, great read, Sean, as usual.

 

Thanks. Yes, I spent some time (and photos) trying to show where that wheel might be located better. Again, I'm curious about what happens when a grip is fitted.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[sean_reid]

The X1 has a lot of strengths and I suspect that the current tradition of the net may focus many discussions on weaknesses while glossing over the strengths. It is a weird tendency but I see that happen again and again. I firmly believe in always looking at both pros and cons.

 

Among the weaknesses, the positioning of the focus wheel and the core speed of the AF (which in "H" mode is quite average, slower than some and faster than others) are probably going to be part and parcel of the final camera. They're not things that can be changed in the 11th hour.

 

But there are a number of functions (controlled by beta firmware of course) that I believe could be improved with firmware changes. So one of my tasks now, as I see it, is to communicate with Leica about these and see what can be done to improve certain functionality. That's part and parcel of being able to test a camera before firmware is final. It's appropriate that reviewers will describe the camera to readers and also provide feedback to the manufacturer.

 

By the way, for those who have not read my review, note that the shutter lag (about 1 second) comes only in full press mode. In half-press mode the X1 is actually slightly faster than the GF1. But the Panasonic does not lose its speed with a full shutter press and the X1 should not as well.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

Edited November 12, 2009 by sean_reid

[dkCambridgeshire]

Sean, I have been trying to access your review (I'm a subscriber) all morning but for some reason cannot access any of them - I just get a photo of a lady with a walking trolley (Part 2) and a photo of the X1 (Part 1) . Could this because so many users are trying to access this eagerly waited review at the same time?

 

Cheers

 

dunk

[sean_reid]

Sean, I have been trying to access your review (I'm a subscriber) all morning but for some reason cannot access any of them - I just get a photo of a lady with a walking trolley (Part 2) and a photo of the X1 (Part 1) . Could this because so many users are trying to access this eagerly waited review at the same time?

 

Cheers

 

dunk

 

E-mail me and we'll get you sorted out.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

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Hallo,

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[nhabedi]

By the way, for those who have not read my review, note that the shutter lag (about 1 second) comes only in full press mode. In half-press mode the X1 is actually slightly faster than the GF1. But the Panasonic does not lose its speed with a full shutter press and the X1 should not as well.

 

See also the remarks under the headline "Shutter Response" here:

 

Leica X1 Field Review

 

Michael Reichmann estimates about a quarter of a second and then wonders why the Canon S90 has essentially no shutter lag at all. We recently learned from Stefan Daniel that the M9 has a higher shutter lag than the M8 (which in turn has a significantly higher shutter lag than analog Ms) due to the need of resetting the sensor before shooting and due to the M9 having more pixels than the M8. But we also learned that the high-end Nikon dSLRs have much better response times and obviously even the response time of the M9 is better than that of the X1 although it has more pixels.

 

I think that all this proves that there is always some kind of shutter lag in a digital camera that can be attributed to the sensor alone (and not AF or something else) but it can be reduced significantly with enough effort and expertise as demonstrated by the afore-mentioned Nikons, the S90, and - to a lesser degree - the M8/M9. That the X1 has a shutter lag that's only in the ballpark of most other compact cameras is thus disappointing IMHO. I would have expected more from a camera of that price.