New S2 competitor from Phase One

[ptomsu]

Carsten

I fear this is catching me again

After investigating all the existing MF solutions and MFDBs I come more and more to the conclusion that the S System could be exactly what I want and need.

1) I want 40MP for landscape (mostly) and to be able to blow up to 60"x40" - never say never again, but I think I will NOT need more!

2) I do NOT need a separate back, because technical cameras are a NO for me - weight, size, complicated etc - no client will pay for this extra quality anyway. I looked a these solutions and it immediately became clear to me this is NOT my world.

3) I want something relatively small in size (as small as MF can get) - the Phase system and the Mamiya camera and lenses is quite leading here, but the S2 will be smaller!

4) I want (need) be able to carry this system easily around in a backpack for a day or so without getting tired - camera and 3 lenses.

5) I want excellent IQ

6) I want great and well known operation of the camera - I am used to Leica, so I assume this will be the same with the S2 (or maybe even better)

Hmmmm .... I hope they get their exercises done not only technically, but also rom support side and future upgrades

[carstenw]

I think that the Leica S2 *could be* what a lot of us are looking for, but we still need to wait and make sure! I don't want to take chances on that much money again. I have not regretted the M8, but I have had moments where I have wondered if I would have been unhappy with a "lesser" camera. One of these moments came this weekend when my M8 died, a few months out of warranty. The S2 must be better.

Don't worry about whether you will ever need more, or whether you will want a tech camera. We can never answer questions like that anyway. And I am sure that you will change your mind a few times still, so I'll see you the next time around Just remember, if you treat us nicely on the way out, you will be welcomed back.

[R10dreamer]

It is interesting to me that we keep seeing the same people in here over and over. I'm hoping that there are more people than this interested in the S2. The price will be the key to Leica's success or failure with this camera. Leica really needs wealthy hobbyists to buy into this system as the pro market seems to be pretty vetted in MF systems already.


http://www.garydwhalen.com

[ptomsu]

The reason you see me in for example is very simple: I need to buy a digital MF system and I am doing simply my homework in selecting the right system for my needs.

The longer I spend in this process the more a lot of things become very clear to me, especially what I really need for a certain quality and also which vendor is intertwined with which other vendor in one or the other form, Very interesting!

And it turns out which vendor's product is more suited for which type of application - of course in general!

Anyway, as I always said, I am a potential buyer of the S System, I do think not too many others posting here will be in a similar situation, but rather hang around because they are just interested.

[marknorton]

Originally Posted by ptomsu

I come more and more to the conclusion that the S System could be exactly what I want and need.

So, Peter, why are you (and others) so unrelentingly negative about Leica and the S2 product in particular?

I'm more than ready to voice my criticism of Leica (witness my "Hot Air and Broken Promises" threads) but when it comes to the S2, I'm happy to let the development process take its course. I'm quite sure the end product will be superb.

All that's called for is a little patience.

[ptomsu]

Originally Posted by marknorton

So, Peter, why are you (and others) so unrelentingly negative about Leica and the S2 product in particular?

I'm more than ready to voice my criticism of Leica (witness my "Hot Air and Broken Promises" threads) but when it comes to the S2, I'm happy to let the development process take its course. I'm quite sure the end product will be superb.

All that's called for is a little patience.

Mark, 2 answers here:

1) I am not sceptic about the ideas and principles behind the S System. At least no longer, as I found what I really need would be perfectly supported technology wise.

2) I am just sceptic about the ability of Leica to bring this system down to the road (to the market) and be able to follow up with new lenses, support, new FW etc. - because history told me this!

I do hope the S System will be different

[R10dreamer]

I'm afraid that no matter how good the S system is (even if it is really really good) if they price it over $20,000, for the body only, they will be in trouble. This is a system that will require ALL new lenses, accessories, etc. so the additional cost associated with the body will be rather steep and really not very relevant to too many active pro's. It can't be jewelry only or there won't be enough of a market, in my opinion, for Leica to survive the eventual onslaught from the existing MF systems. Just my .02.



GD Whalen Photography

[Gentleman Villain]

Brutally honest fact

The majority of people I've encountered in this forum (and all others) are simply not the market for the S2. There is a real hierarchy in the advertising/commercial photography world and forums are not the place to encounter the people at the top of the hierarchy. The people at the bottom and middle of the totem pole often can't relate to the people at the top of the totem pole.

The price of the S2 sounds totally reasonable for a busy commercial photographer. Camera system costs are pretty trivial when compared to the other expenses of running a business. I'm an absolute nobody....but I could pay off an S2 system with just a few catalog shoots. Some of the guys I assisted for in the past could pay cash for the S2 system and not even blink an eye....heck...they pay their agents more in a year than what an entire S2 system would cost.

[dfarkas]

Originally Posted by ptomsu

David,

I am slowly getting there

You say there are NO corrections necessary anymore for the Leica shots? Not as with Phase or Hasselblad?

Do they not do these calculations in camera?

Thanks for your feedback

Peter

Peter,

I'm glad you're coming around. I think you are in a unique position. You've had the opportunity to try out many of the current MF offerings. The S2 does offer some unique advantages and these become more apparent when you start to evaluate all the options and start to think about things beyond the status quo.

To answer your question... no corrections are necessary either in camera or in s/w for the S lenses. I was told, "we correct and optimize the lenses in our optical design, not in software." I'm sure that we will see what kind of performance is possible when a company takes a no-compromise approach to IQ.

David

[pascal_meheut]

Originally Posted by ptomsu

2) I am just sceptic about the ability of Leica to bring this system down to the road (to the market) and be able to follow up with new lenses, support, new FW etc. - because history told me this!

History lied to you or maybe, you did not listen very well

[ptomsu]

Originally Posted by dfarkas

Peter,

I'm glad you're coming around. I think you are in a unique position. You've had the opportunity to try out many of the current MF offerings. The S2 does offer some unique advantages and these become more apparent when you start to evaluate all the options and start to think about things beyond the status quo.

To answer your question... no corrections are necessary either in camera or in s/w for the S lenses. I was told, "we correct and optimize the lenses in our optical design, not in software." I'm sure that we will see what kind of performance is possible when a company takes a no-compromise approach to IQ.

David

David,

this is very true. It takes a while to recognize what one really needs for very good and stellar IQ.

One of my objectives is to offer fine art prints with a size of up to 80"x60". What I have today is MF film scanned by Flextight X5 with highest resolution. And this gives me files comparable in MP with 40MP.

I first thought one can only print this till 40"x30" or so and actually if you ask a lot of printing and post processing specialists you get as many opinions as you ask for. The hard rule is obviously that you do absolutely no up res of your files. Over time I tried myself and I came to the conclusion, that I can easily upscale such 40MP files to print up to 80"x60" and you could not see any real quality issues. More o it seems to be possible in PS3 or other SW and no differences. And I am not even using special fractal SW or whatever i offered on the market, as this is just too much playing around for me!

But now comes the point: I also started to upres files from my M8 and these are 10MP as we all know. I cannot say that I am happy with upres of these files to achieve 80"x60" prints, but for a 40"x30 it is more than ok! I then started testing with my Canon 5D2 files - 21MP as we know. And yes, please do not argue about the quality of C and their glass compared to MF or even Leica, BUT I can print from thes files simply up to 60"x40" without any quality issue. And in some cases I think these files are en superior to fils from an MFDB, simply because the lenses are better in their relation to the sensor size compared to MF.

Conclusion for MP resolution - with 40MP and great glass I can do all my work I ned and will probably not want more MP. Maybe I would be happy to get more if available once and I think that the size of the S sensor is big enough to allow for 60MP or so with a future sensor technology, but as I said I can do my work with already 40MP very well!

The next argument - a serious argument - was that a MFDB one can also use on tech cameras. This is true and I am convinced (without trying myself) that one can achieve stellar results with such combinations just because of the quality of the lenses you get for tech cameras. But would I carry a tech camera plus tripod plus back plus several lenses for many hours or days through desert, mountain etc? Definitely NO! But these are the areas where I want to take my stellar landscape photos. So a tech camera and the flexibility argument of the separate MFDB is gone as well.

Left with the "rest" what I want and need - 40MP, compactness, high quality camera and glass, great SW I can use - there is one clear winner on paper - the S System. I say on paper, because the System does not really exist, so we have to see if it fits all these expectations in reality, but the promises are huge.

My classification or MF systems is like that after all the investigations I have behind me:

Hasselblad: great system, specially tailored for studio and fashion mainly because of leaf shutter only. I do somehow miss an open platform and SW is not really great as well.

Phase: the absolute best and most flexible system available today. Greatest choice in backs and flexibility, highest res available, will obviously stay the top from what I have heard and has the best SW (RAW converter) I know, although some other features of C1 suck. And is obviously the most compact and robust MF system available today.

Sinar, Leaf, Hy6 etc - great systems, great ideas, lot of question marks for the future, very heavy and bulky, low numbers of back they are selling, SW not really up to what I expect

S System: VERY promising in all aspects, not yet available though and thus a big general question mark.

Conclusion: if I need to buy today (which I do not need, as I still have to work through my film archive first) I would go for Phase and a P45+. If I can wait till the introduction of the S System and they do things right it could very well become the system I really prefer and go with over the next years.

Finally price: folks, while price is definitely a very important aspect I am also sure that one goes with the system he/she really likes and needs and does not look to price too much in these areas. If you spend in the area of 30k$ for a system without VAT then it is not sooo important if you finally pay 28k$ or 35k$ if the system really holds up to what you need and expect!

PS: BW all the discussions about Kodak versus Dalsa etc.... maybe many of you already knew, but I had o find out that Kodak bought Dalsa, so Dalsa is Kodak. I think Kodak keeps this separate somehow, just because of business reasons, otherwise they could call it Kodak and just have a separate sensor line in their product offering. So who has the best Sensors? KODAK at the end of the day - I am sorry!

[lct]

Originally Posted by R10dreamer

...Leica really needs wealthy hobbyists to buy into this system as the pro market seems to be pretty vetted in MF systems already...

Yet to meet an healthy hobbyist willing to spend $30K for one camera and 2 or 3 lenses, even if they could afford to buy them along with the photo shop. Too big, too heavy, not comfortable enough for telephoto. As i see it, the S2 is made for healthy professionals with hope that some healthy hobbyists will want to look like the latters soon or late. All hope is not lost hopefully.

[BJNY]

Originally Posted by ptomsu

PS: BW all the discussions about Kodak versus Dalsa etc.... maybe many of you already knew, but I had o find out that Kodak bought Dalsa, so Dalsa is Kodak. I think Kodak keeps this separate somehow, just because of business reasons, otherwise they could call it Kodak and just have a separate sensor line in their product offering. So who has the best Sensors? KODAK at the end of the day - I am sorry!

Really?
Did you mean to write Kodak bought Creo (Leaf) instead ?

[stevesanacore]

Originally Posted by barjohn

Check out the new 40MP camera from Phase One announces P40+ medium format system: Digital Photography Review

It is priced at €14,990 for the digital back and €16,990 for the camera system and shoots at 1.2fps in regular 40MP mode and at 1.8fps in 40+ mode. 40+ mode supports up to ISO 3200.

With a changeable back and what appears to be reasonable size this is smack in S2 territory. Oh! And most importantly it is available now not in some far off distant maybe date.

Well for me the main thing holding me back from the Phase One is the Mamiya camera. I used one for many years and never liked feel of it. And - the new Hasselblad H1,2,3 etc I think is worse. So there is definitely room for the S2 in this market for me, but Leica need to get going and not make the M8 mistakes again i.e., too little too late. And they have to keep the prices down in Mamiya territory at least.

[stevesanacore]

Originally Posted by carstenw

I think that the Leica S2 *could be* what a lot of us are looking for, but we still need to wait and make sure! I don't want to take chances on that much money again. I have not regretted the M8, but I have had moments where I have wondered if I would have been unhappy with a "lesser" camera. One of these moments came this weekend when my M8 died, a few months out of warranty. The S2 must be better.

Don't worry about whether you will ever need more, or whether you will want a tech camera. We can never answer questions like that anyway. And I am sure that you will change your mind a few times still, so I'll see you the next time around Just remember, if you treat us nicely on the way out, you will be welcomed back.

The only reason I want a tech camera now, (if I ever go with MF), is for better optics than Mamiya and Hasselblad offer. Hopefully Leica will produce the S2 optics to be as good or better than the Schnieder's and Rodenstock's that are out there now.

[stevesanacore]

Originally Posted by Gentleman Villain

Brutally honest fact

The majority of people I've encountered in this forum (and all others) are simply not the market for the S2. There is a real hierarchy in the advertising/commercial photography world and forums are not the place to encounter the people at the top of the hierarchy. The people at the bottom and middle of the totem pole often can't relate to the people at the top of the totem pole.

The price of the S2 sounds totally reasonable for a busy commercial photographer. Camera system costs are pretty trivial when compared to the other expenses of running a business. I'm an absolute nobody....but I could pay off an S2 system with just a few catalog shoots. Some of the guys I assisted for in the past could pay cash for the S2 system and not even blink an eye....heck...they pay their agents more in a year than what an entire S2 system would cost.

I agree with you to some degree, but I'm not sure that's a big enough market for Leica. And those jobs were the first to go when the economy tanked last year.

[sdai]

Originally Posted by stevesanacore

I agree with you to some degree, but I'm not sure that's a big enough market for Leica. And those jobs were the first to go when the economy tanked last year.

According to Mr. Reichmann in his P65+ review, the medium format digital market is less than 6000 units per year. Now, if Hasselblad, Rollei, Leaf, Mamiya et al all get dumped or simply disappear, that's 6000 units/per year for Leica.

Does Leica really do more and better by charging a lot more? not everyone will think so.

If they split the market with the others, that's probably 2000 units per year ... I can't speak for the others but that's not the type of business I want to get involved.

It has never been a problem of money, many folks on this forum pay for their Leica's with cash.

I've never had any doubt the image quality of S2 will be there, more or less - depending on your standards ... what sets people back from the M8, in my opinion, is its reliability issues.

Top tier professionals will have no interest and energy like forum gearheads does to figure out and work around these quirks and gimmicks.

[ptomsu]

Originally Posted by sdai

Top tier professionals will have no interest and energy like forum gearheads does to figure out and work around these quirks and gimmicks.

This is a very important point!

If I think how much time it took me to come to the conclusions I can draw today, no Pro would ever have the time to spend this.

[stephengilbert]

A small nitpick: there are no competitiors for the S2; there are no S2s for sale. When the S2 arrives, it may (or may not) be a competitor for various products people are using now. Why not chill a bit and wait; it's only a few more months.

While I'm fairly confident that Leica will be able to produce a fine camera in the S2, and that the lens will be good or great, I wonder about the cost. I suspect that all you people out there with five or six lenses had better be ready to pay $50,000 or more to replicate your gear in the S2 format. And you'll need a bigger bag.

[Gentleman Villain]

Originally Posted by stevesanacore

I agree with you to some degree, but I'm not sure that's a big enough market for Leica. And those jobs were the first to go when the economy tanked last year.

Yes...you're right...the next few years are going to be a bumpy ride. I hope that Leica is able to hold on...

But I have no doubt in the potential for the S2 within the professional market as long as Leica can manage to hold on for the next few years. Everybody has been thinking that a professional camera system needed to be created from the "ground up" and designed specifically for the digital age. It appears that Leica may have answered the call.