Tilt Shift Adapter for S2?

[Gentleman Villain]

Anyone know if there are plans to add a tilt/shift adapter to the list of accessories for the S2?

[dfarkas]

As far as I know, the 30mm T/S will be the only option. Perhaps other T/S lenses will be offered later, but nothing has been announced.

David

[Gentleman Villain]

Thanks David...I was hoping that it might be possible to add a TS adapter similar to the one offered for Hasselblad.

Ever since the whole digital revolution...it just seems that everything is point and shoot. I'm really missing view camera movements.

[AlanG]

The Hasselblad adapter makes all of the lenses 1.5 times as long so that may be ok for a still life shooter but is less useful for architecture and interiors. (The 28 becomes a 42.) You'd need to take the back off and use it on a technical camera with wide lenses. In reading about this adapter, what is impressive is that it electronically tracks the tilt and shift movements and corrects appropriately for CA and other issues. I'm presuming there is no color shift across the frame when using it. I can only assume that the image quality is very good or who'd use it? I bet shooting hand held exteriors with this setup would take a fairly strong arm so it might be harder than using a FF DSLR and TS lenses. If Hasselblad comes out with a wide TS lens, they'd really have something. The chief reason I'd use my Rollei 6006 for some architecture work was so that I could shoot hand held from lifts, ladders, cranes, etc. where a 4x5 would be difficult. I also used my 4x5 Cambo Wide hand held occasionally.

However I could see that an H3DII with a range of lenses, this adapter, and a 23mm Rodenstock on a Linhof Techno or Sinar Artec would finally be a pretty complete MF digital system for an architectural shooter. If money is not a factor.

I don't know how thick the S2 body is but there may be room for a Pentacon lens to S2 adapter.

Since the S2 has a focal plane shutter, it may be possible to adapt the Hartblei 6x6 tilt/shift (Super Rotators) and Arsat shift only lenses to it. Hartblei simply bought the Arsat lenses and put them in their own TS Super Rotator mounts. The Super Rotators were made in 45mm, 55mm, and 65mm versions. (Perhaps others.) There also were 45, 55, 65, 80mm and 120mm shift lenses offered at one point. The few 45mm Super Rotators that are left now are being sold by Phase One for $3900. A couple of years ago new ones were $700-$1000.

But the Arsenal lens factory that made them closed, so now they are only available used. They were very inexpensive when new. Unlike the newest Hartblei lenses that use Zeiss elements, which are for 35mm cameras, the Ukrainian made lenses were made for use on 6x6 cameras. So they have a larger circle of coverage. I have an Arsat 55 shift and it is very good. It cost me about $350 new a few years ago.

What would be very interesting is if Leica made a tilt/shift adapter to allow the S2 lenses to be used on 35mm cameras. (It would have to control the aperture some way.) But since when has Leica looked to sell its lenses for use on other cameras? So maybe they'll do that if it will work on an R10.

[dfarkas]

Originally Posted by AlanG

If Hasselblad comes out with a wide TS lens, they'd really have something.

What if Leica does it first? They have already announced the 30mm T/S. This is pretty wide. Certainly more so than the 28mm with the 1.5 HTS or the 45mm Hartblei on the Mamiya.

Since the S2 has a focal plane shutter, it may be possible to adapt the Hartblei 6x6 tilt/shift (Super Rotators) and Arsat shift only lenses to it. Hartblei simply bought the Arsat lenses and put them in their own TS Super Rotator mounts. The Super Rotators were made in 45mm, 55mm, and 65mm versions. (Perhaps others.) There also were 45, 55, 65, 80mm and 120mm shift lenses offered at one point. The few 45mm Super Rotators that are left now are being sold by Phase One for $3900. A couple of years ago new ones were $700-$1000.

I think think the sample variation and overall poor quality of the Super Rotator from Phase is pretty well documented. Not sure why you'd want to put one on the S2.

What would be very interesting is if Leica made a tilt/shift adapter to allow the S2 lenses to be used on 35mm cameras. (It would have to control the aperture some way.) But since when has Leica looked to sell its lenses for use on other cameras? So maybe they'll do that if it will work on an R10.

You are right, Alan. Leica isn't in the habit of making lenses for other systems. Because manual focus R lenses don't require electronic control, you can use adapters or swap the mounts in order to use them on Nikon and Canon bodies. With the S lenses and future R lenses, apertures will be electronically controlled by the body (same as Canon EF lenses). Therefore, I really doubt any adapters will actually work on N or C bodies. Leica has already stated that S lenses will be mountable on the next R body with a Leica-made adapter. I do like the idea of a shift-able adapter to take advantage of the S lenses' larger image circle on the R and would really hope this is considered.

David

[Gentleman Villain]

Originally Posted by AlanG

What would be very interesting is if Leica made a tilt/shift adapter to allow the S2 lenses to be used on 35mm cameras. (It would have to control the aperture some way.) But since when has Leica looked to sell its lenses for use on other cameras? So maybe they'll do that if it will work on an R10.

That would be awesome! Leica could sell me an R system in a heartbeat if they could make that idea work

DSLRs have created such a point and shoot culture that many of us have forgetten that perspective control isn't just for shooting architecture and landscapes. I used to photograph people with 4x5 all of the time in the days of film. For example, when photographing fashion from an extremely low angle I would use camera movements to prevent the model's figure from distorting.

It would be really interesting if Leica could conjure up some means of perspective control using S lenses on a future R system... I can always dream

[wildlightphoto]

Originally Posted by AlanG

What would be very interesting is if Leica made a tilt/shift adapter to allow the S2 lenses to be used on 35mm cameras.

Awesome idea.

[c6gowin]

Originally Posted by dfarkas

...Leica has already stated that S lenses will be mountable on the next R body with a Leica-made adapter. I do like the idea of a shift-able adapter to take advantage of the S lenses' larger image circle on the R and would really hope this is considered...David

I don't plan on waiting for the new R system, but the idea of a T/S adapter to use S lenses on the new R system makes sense. Good thinking Alan and David. Maybe Leica will pick-up on the idea especially since the new S/R system adapter development is likely in the very early stages if anything more than an idea.

[AlanG]

Originally Posted by c6gowin

I don't plan on waiting for the new R system, but the idea of a T/S adapter to use S lenses on the new R system makes sense. Good thinking Alan and David. Maybe Leica will pick-up on the idea especially since the new S/R system adapter development is likely in the very early stages if anything more than an idea.

Thanks but it was not hard to come up with the idea. Quite a few years ago Mr. Zoerk showed me just such a shift adapter (no tilt) that would have let me mount all 6 of my Rollei 6006 lenses on my Nikons. He designed an electronic interface that used a small battery to control the aperture. The pre-production model that he showed me seemed to work fine. He never went into production with it (he made them for Hassy and Mamiya lenses.) I bugged him to sell me one for several years and he never would do it. (Perhaps it violated a Rollei patent or just wouldn't work right.)

As for the S2 and the 30mm TS. That is fine but is only one lens. It will equal a 24 on 35mm. Canon has a 17 TS-E coming out and the Rodenstock 23 has a 70mm circle so it should cover 36x56 with a tiny bit of movement. That would be like a 14 on FF 35mm format. So I think that is the maximum wide angle lens and MF sensor combo at the moment.

Hassy is offering the use of 4 or 5 lenses but no tilt/shift wider than 42mm. I have 6 TS-E lenses for 35mm and would need something comparable for MF. (Canon 24 and 45, Nikon 28 and 35, Ukrainian 55 and 80.) I don't want to work exclusively with a technical camera as that would be too slow and I don't like the idea of ground glass viewing on so small a system. Especially if one has to remove the back all of the time. (Some of the magnifiers and sliding backs are probably ok.) Some people shoot "blind" via scale focusing with the technical camera and then review on the LCD. Via trial and error they get it right. Live view is really needed here.

I don't know how many of you have used extensive movements, but I have and own lenses for my view camera that have very large circles of coverage. The shifts and tilts available with my gear in 6x9 and 4x5 is much greater than what is available in any of these other systems. And the longer focal length lenses make shallow depth of field on tilts and swings much more effective. For me the best solution would be a 6x7 or 6x9 digital back (with live view) that could work on my Techikardan with my current lenses. Even if it was only 30 megapixels or so.

As for the Ukrainian lenses - I tested them on a Kiev 66 vs. my Zeiss lenses on the Rollei and stopped down they looked very good. I have 3 Pentacon mount lenses (Plus a Zeiss Jena 120) and if I get time I could test them on the 5DII to see how they compare.

If I had an S2 I sure would look into using the Ukrainian shift lenses on it if nothing better was available and I could find them cheap. The Arsat tilt shifts and Hartbleis were a no brainer when they were in the $250 to $700 price range. But the price jump to $3900 for the 45mm Hartblei is simply a case of taking advantage of the limited number available and the lack of anything else. Plus they figure once you buy that MF back you'll pay anything for lenses. (I have a hard time understanding how a 24mm Digitar can cost so much more to make than a 90mm f4.5 Rodenstock Grandagon that is also a precise lens and much larger.) I've never tried the 45 as I was only planning to use it on 35mm and bought the Canon TS-E instead.

[AlanG]

I just remembered that the Zoerk adapters are made by Mr. Zoerkendorffer not Mr. Zoerk. If he, on his own, could make the electronic aperture of the Rollei lenses work, I'm sure Leica would have no problem making a tilt/shift adapter that would allow the S2 lenses to work on an R10 or on a Nikon, Canon or any other camera.

And if Hasselblad can make a 1.5x optical tilt shift adapter for the H3DII lenses for use on that camera, Leica should be able to do something similar for the S2 and its lenses if there is demand. This would go a long way to compensating for the lack of a removable back.

I have to say that the appeal of T/S on an S2 is similar to its appeal on a 35mm DSLR - convenience. When I think of some of the problems associated with the traditional way of doing a shift on an MF technical camera, it seems that it would be easier to use an S2 or 35mm DSLR on a pano head to get as wide as you need and then just straighten the perspective of the image in the stitching program. (This is easy in Autopano.)

Of course tilts and swings are another story. But since the S2 has a focal plane shutter, various medium and longish lenses could be adapted pretty easily to any kind of simple mechanical (non-optical) T/S mechanism for it.

[wildlightphoto]

Originally Posted by AlanG

I'm sure Leica would have no problem making a tilt/shift adapter that would allow the S2 lenses to work on an R10 or on a Nikon, Canon or any other camera.

I'll bet that Leica could make the shutters of the CS lenses work on the R10 too.

[dfarkas]

Originally Posted by wildlightphoto

I'll bet that Leica could make the shutters of the CS lenses work on the R10 too.

Doug,

I've mentioned this as a possibility before and still think it would be pretty cool to have leaf shuttered lenses for a 35mm FF DSLR.

David

[AlanG]

By the way, Rollei, does make a shutter/aperture control device and connector that lets its lenses be used and controlled on other cameras. It's a system for view camera use, not a tilt shift device for 35mm bodies. (Rollei also makes electronic shutters that can be used with view camera lenses and controlled via the same Lens Control S device that controls the shutters and aperture in the Rollei lenses.) So Leica could do something similar to give the S2 lenses more versatility on other systems also.

On another issue - AA filters. I tested an M8 with 35 Summicron ASPH today and compared it with the 5D and 5DII (with 50 f1.8 and 45 TS-E lenses.) I used C1 and looked at unsharpened images from all three cameras and then sharpened them. The unsharpened M8 image was not significantly sharper than the 5D unsharpened image. To get a similar level of sharpened look from both cameras, the M8 needed a value of 130 in C1 and the 5D needed a bit more at 180. (Radius was .8 and threshold was 1 on both.) I'll do a bit more study, but so far I haven't bought into the generally accepted idea that the AA filter is so destructive to detail.

[AlanG]

Here are some things from Zork. The LF lenses and adapter would work on an S2.

Zörk Pro Shift adapter

[zapp]

If you want Tilt
If you want Shift
If you want Wide Angle

Why do you want to use a SLR camera???

[BJNY]

Don't forget Leica did offer a tilt shift adapter for Hasselblad lenses on their S1 scanning camera

http://www.auspiciousdragon.net/phot...09/leicas1.png

[georg]

Don't forget about the microlenses, they propably found a way to design the 30mm T/S to work well with the S2-sensor but any other lens might be difficult!? The S2-microlenses are even shifted, so even "straight" lightrays hidding the outer zones of the sensor will be problematic.

I think technical cameras are still the way to go for serious tilt & shift work.

[mjh]

Originally Posted by georg

I think technical cameras are still the way to go for serious tilt & shift work.

There will always be tasks requiring a view camera and a digital back, preferably one without microlenses. And yet, many photographers would much rather retain the flexibility and easy-of-use of a DSLR even with tilt and shift. For quite a few photographic tasks, what a DSLR and a T/S lens or adapter can offer is really all you need. From what I’ve heard, Canon are quite happy with the demand for their new T/S lenses, for example. Microlenses don’t seem to affect these lenses that much, and if it isn’t an obstacle for a 36 mm x 24 mm sensor, it shouldn’t be an issue for the S2.

Leica pretty much has to offer something in this area. If you owned a Hasselblad or a Mamiya/PhaseOne, you could always detach its digital back and use it with a view camera for serious T/S work. Neither Hasselblad nor PhaseOne has a problem with that; they even make it a point that you can use their backs with view cameras and advertise that fact. But the S2 doesn’t have a detachable back, so without Leica offering their own T/S solution the S2 photographer would still need to get a digital back, if only for using it with a view camera – a back from a different vendor that would inevitably be a competitor in the high-end photography market. That’s certainly not a prospect Leica would like.

[sdai]

I'm sure someone who desperately needs to kill some time will figure out something like this for a S2.



Given the longer register length, people can adapt the Leica 30 T/S lens to a Canon or Nikon DSLR too but of course, you'll need to deal with the 1.25x cropping factor then it won't be of much use ... at least not for me.

As I've said many time, what sets the S2 apart from a real medium format system is the detachable back ... you either hate it or love it, if you need it then you don't have a better choice.

[ptomsu]

Originally Posted by dfarkas

What if Leica does it first? They have already announced the 30mm T/S. This is pretty wide. Certainly more so than the 28mm with the 1.5 HTS or the 45mm Hartblei on the Mamiya.

David

Exactly my point!

Why all this bothering? They already announced their TS lens!

So all you need to do is wait for some more years and then you are ok