S2 under pricing pressure

[guy_mancuso]

Originally Posted by R10dreamer

I agree. I think Leica didn't kiss up to Guy and it pissed him off. I don't know you Guy but I have been reading your posts in here for a couple of years. You seem to need a lot of attention and if you don't get that attention it hurts your feelings. You have done a great service in here with all of your "testing". Just try to enjoy the effort and don't worry so much about the acknowledgment. Have a great day.


GD Whalen Photography

Your joking right . Leica could not piss me off on anything they do and i certainly don't want them kissing up to me ever they never have, never will and we are all still good friends, my opinion will not change that.I am here to challenge them and speak my opinion good , bad or indifferent , your just not reading my comments they way they should be read . What freaking mud pile do you even think this stuff up. I am a Leica camera fan just like anyone else but I also know a lot about reality. I had the DMR and M8 and i also had many issues well documented as well but I will not sit here and blow smoke up your ass and when i hear all this hype on something that is not on the streets someone has to say hey wait a minute. Guess you guy's can't handle that part of Leica and the hype swirling around here. It is and should be a great asset to the Photo world but it is NOT the END all or BE all camera which is clearly what it is being made out to be. There are some real downsides to this camera just like any other camera or system.

BTW there is nothing to acknowledge on any level. i could care less it does not put food on my table and that my friend is my bottom line.

[stunsworth]

Originally Posted by guy_mancuso

...I will not sit here and blow smoke up your ass...

You're on a roll Guy.

[guy_mancuso]

Originally Posted by dfarkas

Guy,

I stood right next to you as you handled the camera yourself at PMA just a few weeks ago and spoke directly to the product mangers. Frankly, I can't believe you would say that the S2 is all marketing hype. You know I think the world of you Guy (heck, we survived each others' driving on the Autobahn, after all), but I have to respectfully disagree with you here.

If you recall, the DMR sensor (17x26) was smaller than the 1DsII sensor (24x36) in addition to being at a 67% pixel disadvantage. The full frame Canon's sensor was actually 95% larger in area or 2x the size. I agree that the AA filter on the Canon was/is strong and degrades a lot of the resolving power and I know this played a large role. Even still, the DMR's superior IQ was plain as day.

The P30+ sensor is only 7% larger than the S2, and depending on how you crop the image the S2 might actually result in a larger image capture area. Alternately, if you crop the S2's file to 3:4 the size difference will increase slightly in favor of the P30+. But, we are really splitting hairs here. The P45+ sensor is 30% larger than the S2, but the Leica is not at a pixel disadvantage like the DMR was to the 1DsII. The 39MPX sensor is also 5+ years old at this point. The S2 sensor is of the same current generation as the P65+ and promises much higher ISO performance and greater DR.

I do think that when you get down to the 6um pixel size (or even 6.8um), lenses start to make a much larger difference than they do with the 9um pixels you have on your P25+. The "fat" pixels are more forgiving, just as they are on a Nikon D3. But, as pixel density increases, so do demands on the optics. Why do so many Canon shooters use Leica R lenses on their 1DsIII bodies? There is a very real difference.

As for all the other "hype," what is to doubt? That it is smaller, more ergonomic, (much) faster, and totally weather sealed? Or that it offers both focal plane shutter and leaf shutter? Or that the LCD screen is actually as good as what is on modern DLSRs? Even if image quality is a total wash, there are a lot of other factors that make the S2 very competitive. See, I didn't once mention all that fast f/2.5 Leica glass that can be used wide-open at any focus distance.

I totally agree that a lot of this will be put to rest once the camera comes out in a few months. After hands-on reports and real images (maybe even some head-to-head shootouts), we'll look back and see how accurate the "hype" really was.

David

I also told you right on the spot this will be overpriced and many other things as well and rather not get into all those discussion here. I liked it David and said as much and even did a hands on it. It has a lot of potential for sure but until the pricing and system are out on the street , the software it will use and the service and support it will get at this point I consider hype until it is shown to us the end user. To me and you know this and said it many times show me the money. I have been down this road and i want to see dry pavement not rain and snow on it. I am here to challenge it and make leica step up and prove it and you know me I have always challenged leica and that has not always been public either. This is one time I said something in public and obviously now some think I am pissed at Leica or some other lame thing. Bottom line and I will repeat don't assume anything and that was my challenge. Folks can take that anyway they want but I wish Leica the best on this and if it sings and the money is right than I maybe in line for one. It does certain things for me that I like and i said them numerous times.

[guy_mancuso]

Originally Posted by stunsworth

You're on a roll Guy.

No Steve your just looking for a witch hunt. Have fun with that one, I won't play.

BTW when you quote someone use the whole sentence in the context it was written. Looks pretty stupid if you don't we are not idiots here and can read into your little digs. Time to grow up Steve this is not 2nd grade

[ptomsu]

How much does Leica pay David for posting such upbeat messages about the S System

This system is pure marketing for the moment and still not real. Not even prototypes

And all the technical facts speak against that it will be better or even equal compared to a 39MP MF system, no matter which vendor.

And all the history speaks against any succes of Leica in bringing even only the smallest professional support down to the road in the next years.

So far all is marketing hype, wishful thinking of some Leica freaks (me included) but NOTHING REAL.

And only a big number of hopes for the future

Not really what one wants to base business on it

[andybarton]

Originally Posted by ptomsu

This system is pure marketing for the moment and still not real. Not even prototypes

That's just not true, as you well know.

[guy_mancuso]

Originally Posted by stunsworth

Gramatical error aside, I think you ought to appologise to David for saying that.

You are ranting. Probably best to think before you post.

Please your advice is not welcome ever and David is a dear friend and we talk like this all the time and you need to stay out of my business . You obviously have a axe to grind and it is completely obvious on your last 3 or 4 posts. Give it up Steve I don't get in your face, stay out of mine.

[ptomsu]

Originally Posted by andybarton

That's just not true, as you well know.

Andy,

sorry, but show me any prototype that I can touch - somewhere in Austria where I live and at any Leica partner they tell me. There have been some S2s around once, but they managed to even miss the most important local show about professional photography. Obviously the small Austria is not interesting for this big and wealthy German company

I was not able to get my hands on one S2, so what are they sending and carrying around? I was told that whenever a S2 camera (however you call it - I call it lab sample in this stage) goes somewhere, a Leica engineer is with the camera. Something like that I do not call prototype - sorry!

Leica shall first show availability of some S2s at least in some selected stores or locations, where we can get our hands on as normal users. And also some lenses!

I really feel pissed by them, as they obviously do not care to get my money. And also obviously my money is not worth the same as from others who could already play with the S2. I would be (would have been) a real potential buyer, but if I cannot touch and play the thing then sorry, I am out of the game. And I tried several things to get in contact with their PM, sales etc. Simply did not show any results. So they are ignoring a potential customer. And this is arrogant ignorance. Or call it even stupid in todays economy.

Just for the background - I am going to buy a MF system in the next few months and I am currently putting all my decisions and findings together. Its a big puzzle but Leica is not part of it, because of their own fault. Sorry again, but Leica is not existent for me as a serious MF vendor, because of their arrogance and attitude of the past and still of the present as I had to find out!

[overgaardcom]

Leica has promised the S2 as a product by (early) summer 2009.

They've never promised to send prototypes from door to door.

I think, if you really want to, send an e-mail to a pro shop or the national Leica agency and express your interest in seeing the product as soon as possible. That would be the way to get real info.

[ddp]

Well, we'd all like to be beta testers for the S2 now, wouldn't we? Perhaps it's vapor ware, but more likely in the hands of shooters that were picked for a reason. Just like the latest high end optics were used in the field, and the M8 before that.

I'll likely never be in the market for this camera - but I certainly find the train wreck threads and the likely suspects posting in them highly amusing. Sort of like death & taxes....can't avoid them.

[ptomsu]

Originally Posted by overgaardcom

Leica has promised the S2 as a product by (early) summer 2009.

I think, if you really want to, send an e-mail to a pro shop or the national Leica agency and express your interest in seeing the product as soon as possible. That would be the way to get real info.

Meanwhile shipping has slipped to October - early summer hee?

You bet I did all of the rest!

Effect - nothing Not even an answer (except from the local representative, that they also did not receive any answer).

Conclusion: leave these arrogant company alone!

[leicar7]

Is there really any reason that this thread continue?

To my knowledge, DF gets nothing from Leica for liking the S2. I like it too, even though I doubt I'll ever own one. My hope is that the S2 morphs into the R10.

Any commentary on pricing is pure gum flapping at this point.

[Gentleman Villain]

Has the economy got everybody in a bad mood?

I'm not being sarcastic....I'm actually very serious. Business is very bad. I sold my studio in 2006 at the peak of the real estate market in anticipation of the rough banking problems that are here now...I can't run a business in this environment. I'm just sitting around and waiting for the currency crisis to get solved. It could take another year or so until that happens.

The s2 sounds like a brilliant camera system. Leica...at least on paper...has appeared to have solved all of the problems that plague the other MF systems. I'm very excited about the S2. But geez, could this be a worse economic environment to launch a very competent yet very expensive camera system? The economy is a mess

I've gotta agree with several of the posters in this thread...Guy is right that it doesn't take a zillion megapixels....25mp or so on a MF is really enough....Alan is right too....35mm DSLRs are good enough for a lot of work ( I shot canon for the past decade)

I hope that Leica can stick it out....I believe there is a lot of promise for the S2 within a certain market. It would only take me 1-2 catalog shoots to cover the cost of an S2 system (assuming the body starts around 25k) The investment in a good camera system is actually pretty trivial (in the long term) when compared to the other costs of running a studio.

Oh well....I hope things work out for Leica...and I hope this economy turns around..It would be nice if everybody could get a long better. Not just in this forum but out in the street....in the town...everywhere. We all could use a break

[Gentleman Villain]

One more thing

Is anybody else tired of the relentless pace of the digital revolution? Is anybody else tired of having to constantly re-train and re-educate in order to keep up with the industry. Anybody else tired of testing gear and tired of solving one problem in digital just to discover another problem popped up out of nowhere.

I MISS FILM...film was so much easier

[AlanG]

Originally Posted by Gentleman Villain

One more thing

Is anybody else tired of the relentless pace of the digital revolution? Is anybody else tired of having to constantly re-train and re-educate in order to keep up with the industry. Anybody else tired of testing gear and tired of solving one problem in digital just to discover another problem popped up out of nowhere.

I MISS FILM...film was so much easier

I don't miss film as I feel that digital is easier and better. And way less stressful. What has happened is we are now working as the photographer, pre-press operator, IT professional, image archivist and have other roles that we aren't being adequately compensated for. I generally have resisted the temptation to try out new software and have kept my work flow the same and consistent for a while. But sometimes disruptive upgrades such as C1 version 4 are forced on us just so we can use the latest cameras.

The only question my clients ask me these days is if I can lower the price. They don't ask if there is any way I can produce better quality that they'd be happy to pay more for.

As for the S2, I think it looks like a good design if Leica pulls it off with the lenses and support, marketing, etc. But I also agree with Guy that it may not be perceived as an MF camera - and this could be a good thing. I think Leica has been positioning it as an upgrade from 35mm FF DSLRs in order to try to expand the market, not as simply another player in the small and crowded MF market. Just listen to how Leica describes the camera as being smaller than a pro DSLR and faster than other MF cameras.

The only problem with that strategy is that it would need to be priced so that it is not way higher than the D3X or 1DsIII systems. However, I no longer am concerned about the price. I'll probably buy a couple of them and all of the lenses as I was recently informed by a high ranking Nigerian gentleman that I will shortly be receiving $38,850,000. Robert Mueller, the director of the FBI, then sent me a follow-up letter confirming it. So I'm golden and don't care about the economy either.

[guy_mancuso]

Alan want to share 10 percent of that when it comes in. I will be waiting.

Let me take a small step back. I don't want to begrudge anyone of anything including Leica. But i agree with Alan pick a battlefield here either go after the MF or go after the DSLR market and frankly they have a huge advantage over the 35mm DSLR camp. Certainly can be billed as the BEST DSLR on the market but in MF it is fighting a small and very well entrenched market with Hassy, Mamiya, Leaf and Sinar and there are not going to be many that will switch over or really even compete against the top tier of that . Bite the market you can call yourself the best. That is what Leica is known for so why try and play both sides. Back to work for me and yes the economy sucks the big banana and we should all forget this stuff until it is out and the proof is in the pudding otherwise it is gum chewing as someone put it. Bye

[andybarton]

Originally Posted by ptomsu

sorry, but show me any prototype that I can touch - somewhere in Austria where I live and at any Leica partner they tell me.

Just because YOU haven't seen one, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It's just ridiculous.

I have never seen Austria, therefore I don't think it exists. It's a vapourcountry. You TELL me it exists, but I have no personal evidence to suggest that it does. Even the Puch pedal bike in the garage could have been made in Germany (that I do know exists, because I've been there) and then have a false label applied.

[lct]

Since when are we supposed to touch prototypes? Your first name is not usurped, Peter.
For a not-so-touching touching report of S2 prototypes, see Chasseur d'Images # 308, Nov. 2008, pages 8 & 9.

[carstenw]

Originally Posted by ptomsu

sorry, but show me any prototype that I can touch - somewhere in Austria where I live and at any Leica partner they tell me.

You mean if it doesn't exist in Austria, it doesn't exist in the world?

For the record, several people, Guy included, have tested the prototypes. I, among others, have seen the files. I am with you on the fact that the camera has to prove itself, and Leica's service too, but you can keep the conspiracy theories in your closet

[carstenw]

Originally Posted by overgaardcom

Leica has promised the S2 as a product by (early) summer 2009.

Minor correction: they always said "Summer 2009", which in this case means at the end, i.e. end of August/beginning of September.

For Peter: If it goes beyond that, yes, I too will admit it has slipped, but until then, they have never promised more