S2 under pricing pressure

[guy_mancuso]

What becomes very important in shooting besides dedicated software to our backs. I use C1 for my Phase backs because I can also control lens corrections as well but more important is tethered shooting and using hot folders is NOT the answer. C1 like other dedicated software to the back MF has become a extremely important shooting aid for MF shooters. C1 IMHO is the best tethered package I have ever seen or used and gives me a lot of control when shooting my back, I can set my WB on the first shot and every shot will follow that and I get previews even with a P65+ back that is pushing HUGE files in 2 to 3 seconds to a laptop. Plus all kinds of tools for two display's , viewing window and more. So this end of it is very important as well. Some points that have been missed or very important as well is camera Profiles. In C1 all the backs have dedicated profiles for a sorts of lighting and these are very fine tuned to each back they make. What this does is not only accurate profiling of the back it saves a ton of time in processing. For Pro level work time is critical and the less time sitting processing the more time doing more billable hour shooting. So all this plays a very important part in your decision to purchase anything. I would NOT have even went Phase without great software for me. So no matter what Leica decides to use they need to consider this very carefully because it truly is so important and a overlooked part of the system overall.

[barjohn]

Given what I have seen of their software development capabilities on the M8 I wouldn't count on them having much in the way of software developed on release. Especially, if the Phase relationship has only recently gone south. It is highly unlikely that they could produce a really good software conversion package in a few months. Further, if their in camera raw files were custom tailored and optimized for C1 the way the M8's are, you are not likely to get first class results from running Lightroom or CS. If you are paying big bucks for first class files but the software can't deliver them what is the point?

[R10dreamer]

Leica must be in shock over the turn of events in the photographic world over the last 10 years. The market (for them) from precision instrumentation/mechanics to computer software based images. From the abacus to the calculator. I certainly hope they can keep up on the software end so that the benefits of their glass (their only marketable asset) can be fully appreciated.

[barjohn]

A company that can't keep pace in the technology world soon vanishes. It's too bad they didn't focus on their strength in optics with lenses for Canon and Nikon, among others, where they probably could have sold more lenses in a week than they could M8 lenses in a year. This, of course, assumes they could have established manufacturing efficiencies to get the prices down to more realistic levels. They need to look at how Panasonic takes their designs and manufactures a premium price lens that is mass produced with high quality. Such lens sales would provide the economic fuel they need to develop a truly stunning M9 & CL as well as new lenses for those bodies at premium but not ridiculous prices.

[mjh]

Originally Posted by barjohn

Given what I have seen of their software development capabilities on the M8 I wouldn't count on them having much in the way of software developed on release.

Except Leica didn’t develop the software for the M8 themselves. And it’s history anyway; a lot has changed since then.

Originally Posted by barjohn

Further, if their in camera raw files were custom tailored and optimized for C1 the way the M8's are, you are not likely to get first class results from running Lightroom or CS.

… the operative word being “if”. No, the raw files of the M8 were in no way customized or optimized for C1 and there’s no reason to assume the S2’s are. How would you go about optimizing raw files for a certain software anyway?

[barjohn]

Originally Posted by mjh

Except Leica didn’t develop the software for the M8 themselves. And it’s history anyway; a lot has changed since then.


… the operative word being “if”. No, the raw files of the M8 were in no way customized or optimized for C1 and there’s no reason to assume the S2’s are. How would you go about optimizing raw files for a certain software anyway?

The optimization occurs in the data that goes into the Raw file matrices. Especially when you work together with the software vendor (Phase) to optimize the profile information. I don't think anyone would argue that LR M8 images are up to C1 M8 images. There have been many attempts to create profiles that would match the C1 images and while some are close none is quite there.

[AlanG]

Originally Posted by wlaidlaw

Michael,

100% agree with you it is vital that Leica supplies 1st class RAW/DNG software with the S2. Maybe they will go back to supplying ACDC like they did with the Digilux 2. I was not impressed with ACDC then but maybe it has improved. After all C1 has improved a lot over the last three years. The other alternative for a pure converter would be Silkypix. I have only just started to play with this for the DNG's from my Ricoh GX200 and have not really formed an opinion yet but seems OK.

Wilson

ACDSEE Pro 2.5 is pretty nice. They say a Mac version of ACDSEE has been under beta test for about a month and a half. Their raw converter has exposure sliders that work sort of like a sound equalizer by adjusting the brightness in various area of the tone curve. The file management, contact sheet, web page, and slide show generation are very useful. Lots of other features in it.

And I agree with Guy that C1 is the way to go for tethered shooting. My workflow is quite simple - shoot to C1, move the best photos into a directory using C1 - convert in DXO - organize and browse in ACDSEE - retouch in Picture Publisher 10, CS4, or Paint Shop Pro - go back to ACDSEE for contact sheets, file management, archiving. ( I occasionally convert via C1 - but DXO is better for most of my subjects.)

[sdai]

The worst thing that could happen is Leica rushing to meet a deadline which nobody except themselves care about ... no matter what they choose to do, given time and patience there will always be a solution.

I still remember there was a feature article in LFI when M8 was initially released, they made it sound like quite an achievement because they were able to meet the deadline set by their "investors". Big deal ... what happened next?

Who on earth must have a S2 in September anyways?

The ongoing drama probably isn't anything Leica expected when they entered the hostile land of "medium format" ... I've long suspected that their relationship with Hassy on the DMR has gone rotten because Hassy sensed their intention stepping into the MF territory.

My guess is that Leica now has already got at least 80-90% of what's needed to build a R10, they can easily transplant the technology into an existing platform. The longtime R faithfuls are certainly more forgiving than the nitpicking medium format geeks ... Phase, Hassy et al may not feel competition then perhaps they may actually offer some help.

All they need is an agreement of non-competition ... such as the one between N and S, S gives the 24mp chip to N, in exchange N is forbidden to build a D700x in the $3k territory.

It's time for Leica to put down their ego and admit the S2 was just an impulse decision ... if the projected market size of S2 is 10000, they can safely bet the market size of a R10 can reach 50000.

Come back to 35mm, the whole world will become friendly ...

[ynp]

I am new to Leica (bought an M8 a month ago) and I am interested in the s2, as many are here.
We use C1 alongside Sinar eXposure and Captureshop with our PhaseOne and Sinar backs and we work with DNG files daily. I only can praise C1. But still I cannot understand why so many posters here are so disappointed with the news about the Leica- P1 divorce? IMO It is not the end of the world. In my experience ICC/ camera profiles for are not too difficult to make, color matrixes can be created and edited, Adobe DNG is a liberating format, known to manufacturers. Why Leica should fail without C1?
As I know, the brilliant Iridient Raw Developer ( USA) and Brumbaer's eMotion DNG Converter (Germany) were developed by individuals, without resources of big software houses and they are recognised as the best SW by many. Why Leica cannot develop a simple tethering module and a DNG Converter themselves? Am I missing something?

Yevgeny
Moscow

[wildlightphoto]

Originally Posted by ynp

Am I missing something?

You're missing Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt. All very popular and of little value.

[R10dreamer]

Originally Posted by wildlightphoto

You're missing Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt. All very popular and of little value.

Quite the contrary. Fear, uncertainty and doubt make us quesion our assumptions and think about our actions. Without fear, uncertainty and doubt we would be like lemmings led to the cliff.

[wildlightphoto]

Originally Posted by R10dreamer

Quite the contrary. Fear, uncertainty and doubt make us quesion our assumptions and think about our actions. Without fear, uncertainty and doubt we would be like lemmings led to the cliff.

I live with Fear Uncertainty and Doubt (FUD) every day. It's 99% groundless and poisons constructive brain activity. There's no need to be a lemming, and no need to be infected with FUD either.

[R10dreamer]

Originally Posted by wildlightphoto

I live with Fear Uncertainty and Doubt (FUD) every day. It's 99% groundless and poisons constructive brain activity. There's no need to be a lemming, and no need to be infected with FUD either.

It keeps you alive. What you do after that is up to you.

[wildlightphoto]

Like it or not the psychology of fear hasn't changed much in the evolution of social vertebrates; in this respect we're not much different from a gaggle of geese. It's what causes panic in a crowded theater and makes mob action seem reasonable to those who'd never mis-behave on their own.

The flock is as fearful as the most fearful member of the flock and the fear is amplified, in the fashion of the telephone game, as it's passed from one member of the flock to the next as each individual in turn thinks that he's 'missing something' and should be more fearful than reason dictates. An individual goose I can approach within a few feet, but the same bird in a flock will spook at 100 yards when a neighboring goose gets jumpy.

Internet forums are the biggest gaggles I'm aware of, making it very easy to spook the rest of the flock. The contagious fear in this thread and many others is obvious is you're looking for it. I suggest we wait and see what Leica does w.r.t. raw developers for the S2 rather than feeding the fear machine.

[guy_mancuso]

LOL yea but someone just took a big crap on my windshield, now what.

[jaapv]

Originally Posted by barjohn

A company that can't keep pace in the technology world soon vanishes. It's too bad they didn't focus on their strength in optics with lenses for Canon and Nikon, among others, where they probably could have sold more lenses in a week than they could M8 lenses in a year. This, of course, assumes they could have established manufacturing efficiencies to get the prices down to more realistic levels. They need to look at how Panasonic takes their designs and manufactures a premium price lens that is mass produced with high quality. Such lens sales would provide the economic fuel they need to develop a truly stunning M9 & CL as well as new lenses for those bodies at premium but not ridiculous prices.

You should hear the stories in Solms about these lenses. Did you know that Panasonic sends teams of lens designers to Leica to be lectured on the basics of lens design - ten times per lens and each time they go home "with drooping ears" as one Leica employee put it.

[wlaidlaw]

Originally Posted by jaapv

You should hear the stories in Solms about these lenses. Did you know that Panasonic sends teams of lens designers to Leica to be lectured on the basics of lens design - ten times per lens and each time they go home "with drooping ears" as one Leica employee put it.

I agree. I think Fuji made better "Leica" lenses than Panasonic does. To say that the lens in the C-Lux 1 my wife had was mediocre, would have been to complement it. The "Leica" lens in my son's new Panasonic T27 is adequate in the mid range of its 12X zoom but pretty ordinary at each of the ends.

I think we all know that in the wider world, Leica is no longer a huge brand like it was 30+ years ago. If they made a range of expensive lenses for Canon and Nikon, sure they would have sold some but not significant numbers. Leica zoom lenses, which is what everyone wants nowadays, have a lower reputation than their primes. I understand that the Zeiss lenses, whose zooms have a very high reputation, for the various DSLR's, are not a huge sales success and they are pitched at a much lower price point than the Leica lenses would be. Leica have been backed into a corner by circumstances, much of it beyond their control. The M8 was a good decision if less than perfectly executed. The S2 could prove to be a good decision as again, it is a niche product but does not need to be excessively priced.

Leica will really however, need to get their act together better on servicing and QC, as at the price levels anticipated for the S2, the current shambles will not be forgivable. I had a friend staying with me last week, whose M8 had just come back from its N'th (N being a very large number) visit to Solms and it failed again, with the shutter sticking half open. My barely used 75 Summarit has gone out of adjustment again with the infinity no longer lining up (all my other lenses are OK so it must be the Summarit).

Wilson

[pascal_meheut]

Originally Posted by wlaidlaw

Leica zoom lenses, which is what everyone wants nowadays, have a lower reputation than their primes.

In your fantasy world, maybe. Other than that, the 70-180/2.8 and the 35-70/2.8 are some of the best zoom ever built for instance.

[georg]

"I agree. I think Fuji made better "Leica" lenses than Panasonic does."

When they would outsource production to Panasonic or Fuji or Cosina they would:

a) make their own production less efficient (utilisation rate)

b) loose know-how to the OEM-producer

c) have to pay the margins for the OEM-producer

Outsourcing has been a big management-trend over the last decades, just like shareholder-value-oriented-management, or relying on credits and rather invest money into risky stock-market-gambling...
It has become clear that it is not as efficient to outsource production, many companies didn't even survive this "trend" while those who rely on their own production are more efficient and healthier!

Quality costs, when Fuji or Panasonic wants to manufacture lenses up to Leica-standards, you would have to pay Leica-prices. Zeiss-lenses up to Leica-standards are also as expensive as Leica-lenses, despite their extremely sophisticated manufacturing sites (although, most machines are similar to those used by Leica, they only have some automatised loading). Professional lenses from Fuji cost several thousand dollars and shouldn't get mixed up with their chinese crap in compact cameras.
One example: for mass-production lenses, grinding machines are used which can handle several lens elements at once. But for more sophisticated and precise elements machines are needed which can only grind/polish one lens element (side) at a time - whether it is made by Leica, Panasonic or China.

[wlaidlaw]

Originally Posted by pascal_meheut

In your fantasy world, maybe. Other than that, the 70-180/2.8 and the 35-70/2.8 are some of the best zoom ever built for instance.

Was it necessary to flame my post Pascal? Did it add to the argument?

All I said is that Leica is better known for the reputation of its primes than its zooms - in the wider world, not in the limited world occupied by us Leica users. Zeiss over the last few years, has been particularly known for its zooms, using the technology developed from its cine business. Notwithstanding that, Zeiss is not succeeding to any major extent in selling zooms to Nikon and other DSLR owners. Someone who used to work for Zeiss UK told me in person, that sales of all Zeiss aftermarket lenses, certainly in the UK, have been at best, disappointing. The far east sales have been better but still not up to initial projections.

Wilson