Best pseudo-S2?

[adan]

OK - the S2 is still a year out.

Suppose I (or some other photographer) wanted to try my/her hand at some of the studio/fashion/architecture/magazine portrait (read medium-format) genres it seems to be aimed at. You know, just to try to build a "book" of images that need more than 10-12 Mpixels and see if I can?

What is the cheapest reasonable way to roughly approximate the "look and feel" of the S2 in both handling and output - i.e NOT getting involved with anything $10,000+

I'm thinking a Canon 5D MK2 would be the most direct route to: near-MF IQ, big sensor, 20+ Mpixels, some capability for Leica glass, availability of TS/PC lenses, roughly equivalent form factor (hand-holdable).

Sony A900 has the sensor and pixels, but not the extensive pro/studio/field lens range.

Let's stick with cameras that actually exist today - waiting for pie in the sky, I can afford to wait for the S2 itself. No Nikon MX or D3x until you can actually link me to one.

[piero]

the cheapest way would be the 5DMKII, IMHO.
In spite of the very very very annoying drastic drop of quality of wideangles use on FF.
24TSE is barely acceptable, 14L is a disaster on digital, and 16-35L survives. The 35L is the only one that holds decent quality standards.
Rumors about the selling tag of 5DMKII say it will be just a little over 2.000€.

[stevelap]

Originally Posted by adan

OK - the S2 is still a year out.

Suppose I (or some other photographer) wanted to try my/her hand at some of the studio/fashion/architecture/magazine portrait (read medium-format) genres it seems to be aimed at. You know, just to try to build a "book" of images that need more than 10-12 Mpixels and see if I can?

What is the cheapest reasonable way to roughly approximate the "look and feel" of the S2 in both handling and output - i.e NOT getting involved with anything $10,000+

I'm thinking a Canon 5D MK2 would be the most direct route to: near-MF IQ, big sensor, 20+ Mpixels, some capability for Leica glass, availability of TS/PC lenses, roughly equivalent form factor (hand-holdable).....

I can see where you're trying to go (although I'm not sure that you will get close to MF IQ) but the 5DII will be relatively tiny (certainly, without the grip) in comparison to an S2 + lens, which seems closer in size to the 1Ds series.

In the Nikon range I think the same would apply, in that the S2 + lens will be closer in heft and feel of the D3 rather than the D700, there was an S2/D700 side-by-side shot on the David Farkas David Farkas Photography Blog photokina blog to give you some idea.

In my opinion if you want something comparable to the S2 in terms of size/handling/mpx today, without going medium format and with some measure of Leica glass compatibility, then you need a 1DsIII if cost isn't a factor or a 1DsII if it is, as the latter can be picked up relatively cheaply these days.

[piero]

I see no point in spending the extra for the 1DsMKIII when you can get same an newer stuff for a fraction. Unless you need fast shooting at a certain rate per second, which is not the S2 case.

[stevelap]

Originally Posted by piero

I see no point in spending the extra for the 1DsMKIII when you can get same an newer stuff for a fraction. Unless you need fast shooting at a certain rate per second, which is not the S2 case.

I wouldn't spend the extra now either, which is why I suggested the 1DsII, but all of the cameras discussed so far have faster fps rates than the S2 will have, unless it's specs change when launched.

Adan asked for something comparable in size/handling to what we think the S2 might be like in terms of size and handling and personally, having read the launch news/blog comments on the S2 and owned both a 5D1 and 1DsII, I think that would be the 1D form factor.

However I guess a 5DII with a grip and one of the larger L series lenses might come close, and if buying new would be far cheaper than a 1DsIII as a temporary option.

[carstenw]

IQ-wise, the closest is probably a DMR... The Canons et al just are completely different, and will give different looks. The other option would be something like a Mamiya ZD.

[guy_mancuso]

Agree with Carsten certainly the Mamiya ZD would be first , It does have a nice 22mpx 9 micron sensor that image wise does a nice job and is MF. I bought one but sold it in about a month because functionally it was pretty slow and ISO 100 really was the limit. BTW a new one was introduced at Photokinia. Than I would say the DMR. I would though like to see the new Sony A900 with the Zeiss 135 1.8 lens just for kicks but pretty limited so far on lenses.

The kinds of work you mention were traditionally shot with medium or large format. Of course this has changed with digital.

If you're trying to build a book and plan to maybe print promo cards or portfolio prints of, say 11x14, most digital cameras would actually do the job. Your technique is much more important. You need to shoot with the care required with the larger format cameras.

I would say the 13x19 prints I get with the 10MP M8 are of medium format-quality and they definitely don't look like 35mm. Not saying the M8 is ideal for the kind of work you mention, but I'm offering that as proof that more megapixels isn't always better.

So I think the suggestion for the DMR is a good one, since the lenses are obviously top-notch and the resolution will be sufficient for your needs for now.

If money is tight though, I would definitely go for the 5dII. It seems like a lot of camera for the money. Zeiss makes some lenses now with Canon EF mount, and hopefully more will come.

The current 5d would actually be more than sufficient for the work you mention if you use top glass and use the camera carefully.

You could step into the current MF systems, but they are pricey and if you (or another photographer) are still building a book and getting your feet wet in different areas of photography, it might be best not to get equipment that is too specialized too soon.

[markowich]

Originally Posted by guy_mancuso

Agree with Carsten certainly the Mamiya ZD would be first , It does have a nice 22mpx 9 micron sensor that image wise does a nice job and is MF. I bought one but sold it in about a month because functionally it was pretty slow and ISO 100 really was the limit. BTW a new one was introduced at Photokinia. Than I would say the DMR. I would though like to see the new Sony A900 with the Zeiss 135 1.8 lens just for kicks but pretty limited so far on lenses.

the sony a900 really produces file with medium format look at base iso, but the files deteriorate rapidly at higher isos. i am waiting for the canon 5D mark II to decide (or better, for the nikon D3x...). the canon wide angles are abysmal, nikon lenses tend to be much better (see 14-24mm) on full frame. the zeiss 24-70 on the sony produced good quality, too.
since i sold my m8 i am either carrying D700/D3 (low mpx) or H1+P45 (weight!!!). i'd like one-system-does-it-all...peter

[mgcd]

R8/DMR. Honestly, you won't need anything more until the S2 arrives.

Cheers,

[earleygallery]

Pentax 67 surely?

[adan]

Thanks for the ideas. Sure, I know that the S2 will be "MF" digital and that it would take another "MF" digital to really play in the same ballpark.

And yes, I know it's the archer and not the arrows. (wink!)

Put another way - suppose you were recommending a camera choice to a student who wanted to go into commerical work but would not have the cash for any MF digital camera either during school or for the first few years out of school?

Interesting that so many seem to think the 21Mpixel CMOS in the 5D is really going to be that much of a handicap, compared to lowly 10Mpixel CCDs (m8/DMR) or the Mamiya 22Mp CCD. Although believe me I love the M8 vs. "film" MF any day.

Guy there are Zeiss 135 images on the A900 over at dpreview - not that impressive, IMHO.

James: I think the S2 comes in a lot lighter than the P67. I did consider MF film as one short-term possibility (P67 or RB67) but the "friction" (lab trips, scanning time) is just too high to go back to film, for me. At least as I think about it now.

[guy_mancuso]

I have to go read that review . I thought a interesting lens they came out with but if not that good than forget that one.

[P. Lynn Miller]

Adan,

You apparently do not want to shoot film, but if you are willing to go back a few decades, you could outfit yourself with a Norita 66 system. I am guessing that weight and handling would be similar with exception of the complete lack of electronics in the Norita. But the Norita does handle like a large 35mm SLR, very different from the Pentax 67 or Pentacon 6. I routinely shoot my Norita 66 hand-held at 1/15 sec with good results as it is very well damped. The viewfinder is bright and easy to focus. All in all just like using a Nikon F or Canon F1 on steroids.

Here is my kit...


The Norita has a complete selection of lens from 40mm to 400m including a leaf-shutter lens. While the lenses are not multi-coated, they are extremely high-quality.

For $10,000 you could buy two complete Norita 66 systems and Imacon scanner and plenty of film.

The Leica S2 really appeales to me, in fact, I want a pair plus lenses very badly, but when I consider the amount of film and processing $100,000 will buy not mention the latest and greatest scanner, it is a reality check. Then add in the periphery costs in upgraded computers, software and storage, I really doubt that the Leica S2 is in my future.

I work in very remote sections of Australia, often days and weeks from any mains supply for powering electrics, so the Norita's work very well for me. Completely mechanical and I am able to do a complete overhaul in the bush if I get one of them flooded or broken down.

But I still would love to justify a pair of S2's. If the S2 is all we hope it is, it would be a perfect tool of the working field photographer. I hope that Leica produces some really fast glass, like a f1.4 normal lens and lots of f2.0 primes on either side. A nice bevy of long telephotos, 400, 600 and 800, would be on my wish-list. But then I would never be able to afford any of these optics, so no point listening to me.

[carstenw]

Originally Posted by P. Lynn Miller

For $10,000 you could buy two complete Norita 66 systems and Imacon scanner and plenty of film.

It is also roughly the price of the Imacon scanner

The Leica S2 really appeales to me, in fact, I want a pair plus lenses very badly, but when I consider the amount of film and processing $100,000 will buy not mention the latest and greatest scanner, it is a reality check.

What is this $100.000 of which you speak? Do you know something we don't? The initial price will be 10.000-20.000, with less than 15.000 Euro being the target. Add a couple of lenses and you are somewhere in the 20s.

[adan]

Carsten, I wondered about that too, but Lynn says he wants "a pair" of S2s plus lenses, which could mean the whole lineup of 9 optics.

$30,000 for two bodies - and yes, I expect the full set of lenses could suck up the other $70,000 rather easily at Leica prices - average $7,900 each, compared to $6,295 for the new 21 and 24, (or a $9,999 Noctilux) with autofocus, covering a larger format?

Put another way, 9 R lenses covering about the same range, but without AF and not covering the same image area = $37,000 at B&H today (19, 24, 35, 28PC, 28-90, 50, 100macro, 180, 280)

A "modular" 400 f/4 APO-R goes for about $16,000 for the two parts - I doubt the 350 f/3.5 (with AF) will be much less.

And the 24 and 50 R lenses are 30-year-old designs without ASPHs

[P. Lynn Miller]

My numbers, I just passed on a fairly new Imacon for $3,000AUD. To be honest, not sure about the price of a new scanner, but hope you can give me a little slack.

As for the $100,000, I am thinking in AUD(about $.75USD as I write this), plus the huge mark-up by the Australia distributor/dealers. But while I would consider importing lenses, I would not want to buy the bodies from overseas simply for warranty/service since this is a new platform unless the price difference is immense.

So to replace my working Norita kit I would require a pair of S2's, not risking a $20,000 plus field trip without a back-up body. I would need lenses from 40mm to 400mm including a fast normal to replace my Noritar 80mm f2.0. Not sure I would need all nine lenses, but I would need S2 equivalents for my 40mm, 55mm, 80mm, 60mmTS, 160mm macro, 240mm, 400mm, with doubles of my main primes as spares. I doubt that you will have much change from $100,000 from this outfit.

Granted, I doubt that my Noritars are in the same league as the Leica optics, but they are more than capable of delivering very fine detail up to 1.5 meter prints. Plus with little effort Zeiss lenses from both Hasselblad and the Contax 645 can be converted to work with the Norita.

Things I would miss would be the interchangeable finders on the Norita. My Norita's have been drenched in saltwater, completely waterlogged in rain, covered in mud, muck and sand and they kept on working. Even a complete submersion would only require WD-40 and some time.

I suspect that even as well built as the S2 is going to be, it would not survive a canoe capsize. This is not to take anything away from the S2, since it is the first camera to seriously make me consider moving away from film. And depending on the projects that come my way next year, I am seriously considering investing in a pair of S2's and suite of lenses.

[carstenw]

Okay, so $100.000AUD is about 50.000EUR, which seems a fair estimate for two S2s and most of the lenses. I doubt that the lenses will cost 5-7000EUR, as Adan does, however. I expect closer to 2-4000EUR, based on the simplicity of the designs (how many are ASPH?), the relaxed largest apertures, and the modular nature Leica has hinted at. The 350/3.5 might cost more though.

[charlesphoto99]

Originally Posted by adan

OK - the S2 is still a year out.

Suppose I (or some other photographer) wanted to try my/her hand at some of the studio/fashion/architecture/magazine portrait (read medium-format) genres it seems to be aimed at. You know, just to try to build a "book" of images that need more than 10-12 Mpixels and see if I can?

What is the cheapest reasonable way to roughly approximate the "look and feel" of the S2 in both handling and output - i.e NOT getting involved with anything $10,000+

I'm thinking a Canon 5D MK2 would be the most direct route to: near-MF IQ, big sensor, 20+ Mpixels, some capability for Leica glass, availability of TS/PC lenses, roughly equivalent form factor (hand-holdable).

Sony A900 has the sensor and pixels, but not the extensive pro/studio/field lens range.

Let's stick with cameras that actually exist today - waiting for pie in the sky, I can afford to wait for the S2 itself. No Nikon MX or D3x until you can actually link me to one.

A used or rebuilt Imacon scanner and any number of great MF film systems out there from 645 to 6X9.

Seriously. This whole spend $80K on a system is fine if you are making $5-10K days or are independently wealthy. Otherwise film is still a very viable option for many many pros. Plus it sets you stylistically apart from the pack. And you get true MF full frame.

And lets not forget that shooting lots and lots of 37mp (or even 21 for that matter) images is going to take a lot of computing power. Expect to ramp up your whole system. Better to get that roll back and scan the one or two images that are worth anything and make some nice prints.

The S2 looks like a great camera but it's not aimed at the casual user. Well, maybe the very very rich ones....

[P. Lynn Miller]

Charles,

I have to agree with your summary. While I am not trying to turn this thread into a film vs. digital debate, the S2 has made me seriously reconsider migrating to digital. So all aspects of the transition have to be carefully considered.

There are so many variables that each photographer has to consider that are unique for each of us. In my case, the investment in a S2 system is for more a want than need. But an aquaintance of mine would be able to pay for an S2 system in a few days, since it is not uncommon for him to shoot 200 plus rolls of 120 Ektachrome in a single days shoot. Well, he used to, till he bought a MF digital back.

So while I am quite sure that the S2 will be a success, I can hardly justify the investment at this point and time with current projects I have on the books for the next 12 to 18 months.

So for now the Norita 66 system will be my pseudo S2...