Digital Reflex S2 - please post all thoughts here...

[stunsworth]

Originally Posted by jackal

With respect, the pros will just laugh at having to invest 40-50k euros in a whole new system such as this.

I think Leica may have done some homework in this area before developing the system.

How much is a cover shoot for Vogue or Elle these days?

[Fokus]

Originally Posted by martinb

Flickr Photo Download: leica-s-

This is it!
Very impressive! but probably a boring price tag of course..

Very impressive, indeed, could not only be the Canon-killer but also the Nikon-nerver...
Greetings
Ralf

[AlanG]

From the little info posted so far, the camera looks like a wonderfully integrated design that shows Leica is capable of producing a first rate modern camera. The 30mm TSE and 24mm wide angle (24mm and 19.2mm equivalents) will make this camera very appealing to architectural shooters - especially if color can stay consitent across the frame. There should be adapters so the Hartblei TSE lenses can also be used.

I am not sure of the potential market. That has to be worked out. I would think that fashion and high end advertising would be the main ones. The big problem is that Hasselblad, Mamiya, and the Rollei cameras by Leaf and Sinar, already have large stables of lenses that photographers already own and are also available used.

I think that the lack of a removable back will hurt sales as this will limit upgrades and also limits versatility as one cannot take the back off of this camera and use it on a view camera or specialized wide angle camera. Although I think most who will want to use an MF back on a view camera would want one of the new backs that have larger sensors.

[stunsworth]

Originally Posted by Fokus

Very impressive, indeed, could not only be the Canon-killer but also the Nikon-nerver...

I don't think that's the target market.

[sdai]

Originally Posted by jackal

Let's pray that sense prevails and Leica decide to price the thing with respect to the current market. Its not as if Hasslelblad is lower quality that Leica ! With respect, the pros will just laugh at having to invest 40-50k euros in a whole new system such as this.

I agree with you that Leica could only stay relevant if this new system is priced wisely just like they've done feature wise. With regards to the worst case scenario, two things come to my mind (at the moment):

1. Hasselblad could cope with with a 50-60MP real 645 FF medium format DSLR at the same price of a S2 in the high end.

2. Hasselblad could also build something like the S2 with smaller sensor if they feel the threat, what's so difficult?

[paulmoore]

I was hoping for an upgrade for the r9/dmr..not yet! I now realize that this has made my rollei6008/hassy digital back redundant...and then some..now if they could only make the S2 back detach so I can put it on a viewcamera..
with prices like what are being thrown out then I would hope and wish they will take trade-ins like the other medium format players do..
I agree about keeping the dmr, mine will go at least another year before thinking about the next r.

[sdai]

Originally Posted by Fokus

Very impressive, indeed, could not only be the Canon-killer but also the Nikon-nerver...

Exactly, there're people dreaming about a Nikon MX whatever ... in dead water. LOL

[pcsmythe]

It seems as if the comments about the Hasselblads, etc. are missing the mark. Those cameras don't see the light of day outside of the studio. This S-System is weather-sealed and is smaller than the Canon. Consequently, it looks to be a groundbreaker - you can use it in the field or in the studio. The two-shutter system is quite the deal. Indeed, it may be just the camera that causes the MF shooters to abandon their MF backs, etc. because of its versatility. Who wouldn't want this kind of camera?

Both Canon and Hasselblad could (and should) get nervous over this one.

[mooky]

Originally Posted by jackal

I actually care because i'd like them to sell a few of these things and survive, and then my own M collection will remain useable and valid. If you yourself take the wider, more realist view instead of just salivating robotically at anything that bears the leica badge, you would care too.

The prices are undeniably very important and at the moment, if 30,000E is near correct then over a comparable HD3 or Sinar you are paying something like 17,000E premium all for an extra 6 megapixels or so.

Let's pray that sense prevails and Leica decide to price the thing with respect to the current market. Its not as if Hasslelblad is lower quality that Leica ! With respect, the pros will just laugh at having to invest 40-50k euros in a whole new system such as this.

No robotics here, and of course I care, just extremely pleased that Leica is in the hands of a dedicated owner. I understand your sentiments - because over the years I have seen Leica dealers and owners suffer or even close doors - some have been friends. But that is also an industry trend. I think we all want Leica and it's dealers to be supported, profitable, and there for us again. We are still dealing with many 'if's' but I choose to see the positive.

[jackal]

Originally Posted by frankbernhard

Yepp, thats right for the 31 Megapixel H3D. Fotopartner sells it for 11.895 Euros inkl. VAT here in Germany. Isn’t this the latest Hasselblad promotion? The H3D 39 is still 27999 Euros. The Leaf AFi is about 28.500 Euros, the Sinar Hy6 about 26.000 Euros, both the Sinar and the Leaf with 33 Megapixels. So the S2 for something about 20.000 might be worth the money.

(www.fotopartner.de)

its not a promotion, its staying that way

also the new sinar kit of similar resolution is the same price

the 22mp mamiya system is even cheaper.. under $10,000 !

[Jamie Roberts]

If the ISO speed is high enough, a Summarit will suffice for me with this sensor size. Remember, it's not 35mm, so you NEED to stop down a bit...

Larger lenses like this are cheaper to manufacture (compared with M glass). So the price may be surprising.

Depending on the overall throughput and high ISO response, this could be squarely aimed at the high end Canons and the low-end Hassys and Mamiyas.

It's weather-sealed for heaven's sake! And smaller than a 1d3?!! So much will depend on IQ, no funky surprises (a la IR on the M8) and the image pipe... how fast to shoot, how large (can you turn it "down" in terms of size and get an sRAW?) and what the high ISO response is like.

I'm going to be wishful on this and say it's going to start at around $15K US with a "standard" lens. Those PC lenses are going to be pricey, though, I bet

[KM-25]

Originally Posted by giordano

If I read the MTF tables right, the Summarit-M 75/2.5 wouldn't be up to Leica standards in the corners of the larger frame.

There is no way it would not be good in the corners, one thing Leica does not 1/2-ass is optics.

But the ergos on the camera...whew, lets just say I hope there is a nice vertical grip.

[stunsworth]

We haven't seen the full specs yet. It may be worthwhile waiting for those before comparing cameras. The M8 has the same number of pixels as the Panasonic LX-2, but are the two systems comparable?

At least this time I can say with certainty that I won't be owning an S2 at some point in the future <grin>

[Rolo]

It's obviously aimed at the fashion photo industry, whether that be inside a studio, or out. Whether it be clothes or cars......

They've pitched it beyond the capability of the Canon and Nikon glass, so the quality approaches Hasselblad, but being faster than a Canon, it will leave the Hasselblad for dead.

However, it won't mate well with an iMac.

Rolo

[derek_stanton]

Originally Posted by stunsworth

I think Leica may have done some homework in this area before developing the system.

How much is a cover shoot for Vogue or Elle these days?

I don't think covers pay much at all. The 'honor' is supposed to be enough.

But, most of them are shot by contracted photographers anyway, so they are well-compensated in the end.

[frankbernhard]

Originally Posted by jackal

its not a promotion, its staying that way

also the new sinar kit of similar resolution is the same price

the 22mp mamiya system is even cheaper.. under $10,000 !

Hm, that is right. But isn’t it only fair to compare the S2 with the others that are similar in resolution? The article mentions that Leica might »trickle down« the S2’s technology to other cameras – maybe a S2 with 22 Megapixels or the even smaller R10?

[KM-25]

Originally Posted by stunsworth

I don't think that's the target market.

Me neither.

I also think it is silly to say this is a Nikon or Canon killer knowing full well the pace that these other companies work at.

Medium and large format digital is an area that has been somewhat lacking for competition so as good as this is, I expect Canon and Nikon have been strongly considering it as well for some time now, especially with 3-rd party lens makers like Zeiss stepping up to the plate.

That being said, I get stellar results for real cheap from my Hasselblad system and 9000 scanner. If I did nothing but the kind of work that would require a deeper investment into M/F, I would look at these new systems though.

[Jamie Roberts]

Originally Posted by Rolo

It's obviously aimed at the fashion photo industry, whether that be inside a studio, or out. Whether it be clothes or cars......

They've pitched it beyond the capability of the Canon and Nikon glass, so the quality approaches Hasselblad, but being faster than a Canon, it will leave the Hasselblad for dead.
{snipped}

I haven't seen a price yet... but the specs have me hopeful they are TARGETTING Canon and Nikon.

Did I mention it's weather-sealed? Why on earth would you need that for fashion?? It's smaller than a 1d3 and a bit bigger than a 5d?

That's a small dSLR with a very large sensor I'm not even sure how they did that.

I bet my R glass fits, as well

[sdai]

Originally Posted by Jamie Roberts

Did I mention it's weather-sealed? Why on earth would you need that for fashion??

Yeh, you're right, Jamie ... my gut feel is that the camera is aimed squarely at the glamour shots market ... now they can bring it into the pool, under the waterfall. LOL

[rosuna]

The problems is in the price.

The Canon 5D Mark II sells for 2.000 euros (without VAT). The Canon 1Ds Mark III is in trouble now (a friend of mine bought it for 7.000 euros a few months ago!).

What pricing will be necessary in order to make this S2 competitive? Hasselblad is offering a HD3-II camera + 31MP back for 12.000 euros (+ a 80mm lens). So any price higher than that is too dangerous.

Is Leica ready for price competition? This is the question.

On the other hand, I see too many systems for a company so small like Leica: M, R, S, M4/3... How they will handle this? How they will keep alive the R system?