Dont get the point of the S2; could their owners enlighten me?

[proenca]

Hi there,

Im not here to start a flaming war ; actually, I'm a Leica nuts more than anything else - I had Nikon, Canon, Fuji, Kodak, sold everything and then ... well, discovered how disposable income can be so... well, rare I bought Leica : M7, MP, M8 , the lens...

And love it. To bits. Yap, the M8 has its quirks and flaws. But we, the dedicated Leica owners dont dare at ALL call it flaw. We call it personality

Now for for the S2, I just dont get it.

Yap the M8 had flaws. The M8.2 was a fix, a patch but a then most of the problems seem resolved with the M9.

But the S2 ?

Given Leica proven track record on the digital age, we were not to expect a perfect camera. Erm no.

But what is the S2 point ?It fails me. I genuinely dont see its niche.

Leica grossly underestimate its lack of MF experience and the result its... well... the S2.

Since I've heard the S2 inital reports, seemed to be the best thing since sliced bread.

But what it brings to the arena ? Not much. Seemed perfect on paper though : 35mm size, MF quality, good ISO's, weather sealed, nice AF.

But reports of users who bought it are comming out and well, things dont look hot for Leica : the ISO's are not that lovely when we start cranking up ( seem very comparable to M8 high ISO , which is fine in a 4 year old camera but not in a 2009 release ) , AF nothing impressive... just gives the 35mm size and weather sealed.

So, again - what's the point ? Yes the colours seem fine and so the dynamic range but it has severe drawbacks - seems a direct quote from early digital MF days...

I just dont see who is going to buy a S2 - Hassy / Phase One / etc MF users are not going to ditch their lenses and proven bodies for a S2, specially when 1 or 2 year old backs have the same qualities of a S2.. and I dont see that the whole MF crowd were crying for a 35mm body with weather sealing and the S2 is the answer to everyone prayers...

So I do fear for Leica : millions went down the drain to R&D the S2 and the products really seems that doesnt do much ... so what takes ?

Wouldnt have been much better to develop a R10 - lens were already here ?

S2 could have been great if it costed a couple of thousands less... but that didnt save the Mamyia ZD did it ? It just seem that the S2 is the "new" Kodak 14n - high resolution if only low iso is used , good colours and very sharp... but if the variables change a bit... Oh well...

[jaapv]

If I read your post correctly it centres on high-ISO performance. I am not an MF expert, but I do know that that is not the strong point of any MF camera, so I would like to see comparisons with other MF offerings before judging.

[delander]

OK I'll bite:

This has been discussed widely before especially on getdpi but to reiterate: It is an attempt by Leica to make a camera which is competitive in image quality with existing MF cameras whilst maintaining the ease of use associated with 35mm DSLR cameras.

It uses a Kodak CCD as do other cameras with similar sizes of sensor. It is never going to give the high ISO performance of the latest CMOS Nikons etc, but it is similar to the P1 and Hassleblads in this area. It is not 3 year old technology.

Time will tell how well it sells. I'm sure that like the M9 it is a beautiful camera to use.

Jeff

[proenca]

Jaap and Jeff : dont get me wrong. I was not expecting a Nikon D3 with a bulk sensor.

But from all the samples I've seen, here, getdpi and the like forums,100% samples, that high ISO samples ( and I mean high ISO for MF - 320 to 640 ), its just not good. And I thought ( maybe wrong ) that the S2 was bringing something new in this department. Either I was plain wrong ( high possiblity ) or... ?

For example : a good Hasselblad H3D 39 II can be had, complete, with a 80mm lens for a fraction of a price of a Leica S2.

Yes I know that Leica lives in a fairy tale world when it comes to set prices, but Hasselblad isnt exactly a cheap brand...

And getting back to a H3D 39 II, what advantage does a S2 offers ? From what I can see, it just offers weather sealing and a lighter setup.. Yes, nice, but not exactly ground breaking in the MF world, which most often a MF camera is used in a tripod to take advtange of resolution, etc etc.

I see the S2 has a new F1 car, that has the same horsepower as the existing ones, with no aerodynamic gains but has the great ability of using sand tyres....

[adan]

I think the rationale is this:

Many pros have to buy and carry (or have their assistants carry ) at least two camera systems. A rather bulky and non-ergonomic MF camera that can do 35+ Mpixels - and a "35mm"-based SLR that is easier to hold and move around with, but can't top 24 Mpixels.

Often both needs can occur in a single shoot - let us suppose a location fashion shoot. The photographer needs both the hi-res static shots from MF, and also more lively shooting sequences (of the same general setup, but with the ability to move with the natural light and the model). If one is paying for the model and the stylist and all the other stuff, one may as well get as many different types of shot out of the investment as possible.

Think back to "Blow-Up", where the photographer is shifting back and forth between a Hassy and his Nikon while snapping Veruschka:

http://ekatocato.hippy.jp/gazou/veruschka18.jpg
http://static.guim.co.uk/Guardian/ar...lstar-2185.jpg

Leica says that their research shows there is a significant subset (niche - perhaps) of pro shooters who would rather have ONE camera system that is BOTH: lighter and much easier to work with intuitively and handheld than the current MF+back cameras; AND higher resolution than the current crop of top-end "35mm-like" SLRs. One set of lenses to schlep and pay for, one set of buttons to become expert at using intuitively, one set of cords to hook up for tethered shooting to keep the clients happy. And so on.

All pros in all situations? No. You? Perhaps not. Enough to get Leica the "double-digit percentage" of the MF market that they say they are aiming for? We shall see.

(Incidentally, while I'm not in the MF market, S2 or otherwise, I have held a Hassy H3D. I would NOT want to shoot it except on a tripod. God what a brick! Quite a bit heavier than the classic film Hassy V series, except maybe for the motorized verions with 70mm backs)

Generally speaking, in commercial shooting - fashion, glamour, product, etc. - really high ISO (1000+) is irrelevant. You light, or schedule your shoot, in order to use the lowest ISO available. If you are aiming for a doubletruck in Vogue, you won't shoot ISO 3200 even with a Nikon D3s (at least, not if you want more such opportunities )

Unless of course, one WANTS the gritty, grainy "look": http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s.../new/blog1.jpg - in which case, great really high ISO performance is counterproductive anyway.

[Gentleman Villain]

The S2 is designed for a top-tier professional market. Maybe some are familiar with the phrase "revert to the mean." Workshop teachers, bloggers and wedding/portrait photographers probably comprise the "mean" within most photography forums. These photographers probably cannot truly relate to the top tier commercial shooters. The S2 was designed for a niche market of top tier professional commercial photographers. So, it should come as no surprise that the majority of opinion written on the net is coming from people that simply cannot relate to the S2 in terms of it's intended target market. That doesn't mean that serious hobbyists or the ambitious cannot appreciate and get their hands on an S2. It simply means that the majority opinion available online in regards to the S2 reverts to the mean.

[stephengilbert]

"That doesn't mean that serious hobbyists or the ambitious cannot appreciate and get their hands on an S2." Not to mention the self-important, and those who measure their worth by what they own.

[guy_mancuso]

Originally Posted by adan

I think the rationale is this:

Many pros have to buy and carry (or have their assistants carry ) at least two camera systems. A rather bulky and non-ergonomic MF camera that can do 35+ Mpixels - and a "35mm"-based SLR that is easier to hold and move around with, but can't top 24 Mpixels.

Often both needs can occur in a single shoot - let us suppose a location fashion shoot. The photographer needs both the hi-res static shots from MF, and also more lively shooting sequences (of the same general setup, but with the ability to move with the natural light and the model). If one is paying for the model and the stylist and all the other stuff, one may as well get as many different types of shot out of the investment as possible.

Think back to "Blow-Up", where the photographer is shifting back and forth between a Hassy and his Nikon while snapping Veruschka:

http://ekatocato.hippy.jp/gazou/veruschka18.jpg
http://static.guim.co.uk/Guardian/ar...lstar-2185.jpg

Leica says that their research shows there is a significant subset (niche - perhaps) of pro shooters who would rather have ONE camera system that is BOTH: lighter and much easier to work with intuitively and handheld than the current MF+back cameras; AND higher resolution than the current crop of top-end "35mm-like" SLRs. One set of lenses to schlep and pay for, one set of buttons to become expert at using intuitively, one set of cords to hook up for tethered shooting to keep the clients happy. And so on.

All pros in all situations? No. You? Perhaps not. Enough to get Leica the "double-digit percentage" of the MF market that they say they are aiming for? We shall see.

(Incidentally, while I'm not in the MF market, S2 or otherwise, I have held a Hassy H3D. I would NOT want to shoot it except on a tripod. God what a brick! Quite a bit heavier than the classic film Hassy V series, except maybe for the motorized verions with 70mm backs)

Generally speaking, in commercial shooting - fashion, glamour, product, etc. - really high ISO (1000+) is irrelevant. You light, or schedule your shoot, in order to use the lowest ISO available. If you are aiming for a doubletruck in Vogue, you won't shoot ISO 3200 even with a Nikon D3s (at least, not if you want more such opportunities )

Unless of course, one WANTS the gritty, grainy "look": http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s.../new/blog1.jpg - in which case, great really high ISO performance is counterproductive anyway.

Andy hate to say it but your off by a country mile. It's really all about flexibility and what comes your way and how to accomplish those goals. I would not turn down 5 days of shooting pay because I could not get it done with a MF system. Find a way because be it ISO 50 or 3200 the client could care less it is a matter of finishing the job. MF is NOT the stereotype you are presenting at all and photographers have have many different needs and on different gigs as well. I shoot the gamut so generally speaking it's not about tripod mounted, ISO 50 and 12k in lighting. Far from it. This is just one single aspect in this link but something I run into often besides everything else that walks in your door. The S2 needs to do this kind of work. If it is going after wedding and fashion shooters ISO 50 is NOT going to cut it, it is going to need high ISO's and the flexibility to do this type of work as well and similar to it be it full resolution or even binned down which it does not do at the moment. Wedding shoots are constantly at high ISO numbers in many situations in the course of a wedding.

Phase One DF, P40+ and Sensor Plus Combination - The GetDPI Photography Forums

[adan]

Hi, Guy! You quoted my whole post and then referred to wedding photography (which I didn't) and linked to runway shots (which is not what I meant by fashion or glamour photography - although I admit it qualifies).

You are right that the S2 by itself is not (yet) the camera for photographers who "shoot the gamut", "everything else that comes in the door," or "what comes your way." I wouldn't use it for sports, either. Or wedding candids.

I guess my thinking is that, while jack-of-all-trade pros who "shoot the gamut" make up the vast majority - especially in a down economy when jobs are thin - there is also a whole different kind of market in New York, LA, London or Paris, where the density of high-end work is higher and will support specialists.

We're talking geography here, not just talent!! But I suspect most of these folks can be choosy about the assignments they take (well, maybe not Annie L., who went broke even at $250,000 per assignment):

Contact Press Images

Contact Press Images

Contact Press Images

Art + Commerce: Assignment Photographers

Welcome to the Official Website of Victor Skrebneski

http://www.hedrichblessing.com/

A large proportion of the pro market? Not even close. A large enough proportion (world-wide) for Leica to make money selling to? I guess they think so.

[adan]

Oh, BTW, nice samples of the pixel-binning technology in the P40+. If you're trying to keep pressure on Leica to include something similar in the S2 (or follow-up cameras), don't let me get in your way. I expect it will be required technology pretty soon in anything with a native resolution over 32 Mpixels (8 Mpixels "binned").

[farbtupfer]

What i see for the S2 is that there is no really target group. And the marketing is telling us that a weather sealed cam is now needed and you are able to use it everywhere you want. Curious that its now a matter in the MF world. How long is MF existing already....?

[guy_mancuso]

Originally Posted by adan

Hi, Guy! You quoted my whole post and then referred to wedding photography (which I didn't) and linked to runway shots (which is not what I meant by fashion or glamour photography - although I admit it qualifies).

You are right that the S2 by itself is not (yet) the camera for photographers who "shoot the gamut", "everything else that comes in the door," or "what comes your way." I wouldn't use it for sports, either. Or wedding candids.

I guess my thinking is that, while jack-of-all-trade pros who "shoot the gamut" make up the vast majority - especially in a down economy when jobs are thin - there is also a whole different kind of market in New York, LA, London or Paris, where the density of high-end work is higher and will support specialists.

We're talking geography here, not just talent!! But I suspect most of these folks can be choosy about the assignments they take (well, maybe not Annie L., who went broke even at $250,000 per assignment):

Contact Press Images

Contact Press Images

Contact Press Images

Art + Commerce: Assignment Photographers

Welcome to the Official Website of Victor Skrebneski

http://www.hedrichblessing.com/

A large proportion of the pro market? Not even close. A large enough proportion (world-wide) for Leica to make money selling to? I guess they think so.

Well true i did not separate your quote but my point is when your dropping this kind of money down , it's hard to accept a one horse pony to begin with and having a Canon or Nikon system may not be in the cards as a second system. What MF is evolving into is trying to get more flexible and with the S2 Leica is trying to fit in a gap area but it still comes up short without pixel binning and high ISO even though 640 is pretty good it still needs better. Let's face it if MF does not get more flexible as the mpx count goes up in 35mm than it is a lost format if it can't compete at relatively the same capabilities . Sure shooting heavy sports is still not so much in the cards for these systems but high ISO is a very popular attribute in any system these days and good speed is as well. MF does have to improve in these type of area's for shooters, the S2 is a nice attempt but I am also not seeing a lot of Pro's go for it yet and that remains to be seen. Also no one is going to buy 2 lenses with a promise for more either if your preverbal neck is on the line.

Leica needs those 3,4 and 5 lenses out today to make any dent in the market.

[theendlesshouse]

Leica Mythbuster -

1. That they are new to the digital camera game, they are not! Having made them for years.

2. They are not solely reliant on revenue from the S2 and M9 to survive as a company. Leica specialize in optics and have a substantial revenue form their other products.

3. The firmware for the M9 and S2 are still in their first iteration, things can only get better, right?

4. They genuinely care about image quality and have deliberately sacrificed higher iso performance in pursuit of this quality.

[guy_mancuso]

Originally Posted by theendlesshouse

Leica Mythbuster -



3. The firmware for the M9 and S2 are still in their first iteration, things can only get better, right?

4. They genuinely care about image quality and have deliberately sacrificed higher iso performance in pursuit of this quality.

Number 3 yes to a certain degree, some things can improve no question. But better profiles in raw convertors is really the key.

Number 4 High ISO performance has nothing to do with lessor quality . You can and will get that out of other systems as well. One does not wash out high ISO performance with lessor quality of file . Phase does both, excellent quality at ISO 50 or ISO 800 full resolution plus adding the sensor plus technology.

Read the reviews on both Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com - The GetDPI Photography Forums

[Bo_Lorentzen]

Guy,

>>Leica needs those 3,4 and 5 lenses out today to make any dent in the market.<<

Agree, currently only the 70mm FP shutter is available, That is a bit like setting up a commercial photo-operation with a 501 and a 80mm, while I have shot jobs with such a combination, I suspect a lot of people would start feeling limited rather quickly, particularly considering the price of entry and there are just no asking "get me something longer" when the urge to isolate come up.

Right now its a $30.000 camera with a short portrait lens, and there need to be a lot of corporate and celebrity portraits in the box to pay for this.

I suspect we will see some defining choices later when there is a system and possible some poster-child shooters do choose S2 for campaign work etc.

.

[theendlesshouse]

Originally Posted by guy_mancuso

Number 3 yes to a certain degree, some things can improve no question. But better profiles in raw convertors is really the key.

Number 4 High ISO performance has nothing to do with lessor quality . You can and will get that out of other systems as well. One does not wash out high ISO performance with lessor quality of file . Phase does both, excellent quality at ISO 50 or ISO 800 full resolution plus adding the sensor plus technology.

Read the reviews on both Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com - The GetDPI Photography Forums

I was under the impression that they chose the sensor they did because of its performance, i.e image quality? I could be mistaken.

I find a lot of the Leica negativity mildly conspiratorial i.e. Leica have some sinister agenda to misinform their customers? The impression I got was that they make the decisions they do regarding hardware and software to create what they consider to be the best image capturing device they can at a trade off occasionally having to prioritizing one solution over another.

I find as the noise reduction tools in post software are such that it is no longer much of an issue. i.e. Capture One 5 Pro is phenomenally good.

[proenca]

Thanks for all that replied ; but still my question seems a bit on the unanswered side....

I'm not a pro photographer neither I was planning to buy a S2 - sort of. I thought up to recently to buy a second, high quality, high mp, slower system - MF in digital pop to my mind and started browsing refurb H2D and H3D .. and even thought about the S2.

But what Guy says, its pretty much what I think : its a nice camera, no doubt. Needs some extra work and refinements ? Indeed, as any new Leica digital product.... *sigh* ...

But truth to be told, it doesnt bring anything new to the arena - it would if it had a good high ISO performance... but from where I stand, its just a nice package rolled up in a 35mm body size... new, yes, ground breaking not exactly.

What what Guy said, its what I think - I dont see a pro photographer that already owns a H3D refuses a job because has to lug around its gear all day.. cheaper than buying a S2 is to rent an assistant or buy a mule...

My problem with the understanding of the S2 is that on top of the so-so camera abilities, it has a very very limited range of lenses. While Phase, Mamiya, Hasselblad and the such have a long array and choice of proven lenses - Leica just have a couple for the S2.. and not all available yet...

So it continue to puzzles me why Leica spent so much to deliver a product that apart its compactness, doesnt bring much to the arena where its going to fight - and hard, to stay alive.

I never though by a minute that the S2 would be a mass product - hell no. Sure, its a niche product and directed to ... someone, but who ? Who were they thinking ? Seems like MF users but what advantage does it bring to an existing MF user to the point of him ditching his system and go for the S2 ? Weight alone ? hmmm

[farbtupfer]

Originally Posted by proenca

Weight alone ? hmmm

Perhaps the question is what can the S2 in MF do what other MF can't do...?

[proenca]

Originally Posted by farbtupfer

Perhaps the question is what can the S2 in MF do what other MF can't do...?

Apart from weather sealing ? I dont see anything else that the S2 does that a H3D or similar Phase back doesnt do. Actually with a P45+, it does more things than a S2 does. Hence my original question.

[nhabedi]

Originally Posted by proenca

Actually with a P45+, it does more things than a S2 does.

Yes, and any old dSLR does more things than the M9 does. What was your point again?