Dont get the point of the S2; could their owners enlighten me?

[stephengilbert]

I thought we were all going to buy S2s because of the fabulous Leica lenses. Now we're excited about the possibility of using other manufacturers' lenses? I thought we'd all agreed that other makers' lenses couldn't be as good as Leica's?

I plan on using a pinhole for mine.

[wildlightphoto]

Originally Posted by stephengilbert

I thought we were all going to buy S2s because of the fabulous Leica lenses.

We all have our own individual reasons for using any piece of equipment. Until a long Leica APO lens is readily available the S2 body by itself, with a good long lens, is reason enough for me.

[wildlightphoto]

Originally Posted by Bo_Lorentzen

Doug,

Why is it I suddenly visualize you with a novoflex shoulder stock 400mm mounted S2 in the rain.?

.

It's funny, I can visualize the same thing but it will be a very long while before I can visualize being able to afford one

[guy_mancuso]

Originally Posted by dfarkas

I too have heard rumblings of adapters for the S2, specifically for Hassy V lenses.

But, there is no way to use S lenses on a non-S body. The S lenses use an electronically-controlled aperture.

David

David I already knew this you missed the point and was trying to find out what more BS was floating around.

[vieri]

Originally Posted by stephengilbert

I thought we were all going to buy S2s because of the fabulous Leica lenses. Now we're excited about the possibility of using other manufacturers' lenses? I thought we'd all agreed that other makers' lenses couldn't be as good as Leica's?

I plan on using a pinhole for mine.

Maybe because there aren't many Leica lenses to go around with the body, yet? seriously, someone buying the S2 and wanting to use it for actual work, need either Leica to come out with lenses real soon or - in the meantime - at least an adapter to use what lenses are already around...

[fotografz]

While fully understanding Doug's excitement about using his killer Leica long glass, I'm personally so over adapted lenses that it's not even a consideration factor anymore.

Leica needs to get it in gear and at least get a wide out there soon so folks considering this "new form factor" camera can realize its full "new form factor" potential.

-Marc

[tashley]

Originally Posted by fotografz

While fully understanding Doug's excitement about using his killer Leica long glass, I'm personally so over adapted lenses that it's not even a consideration factor anymore.

Leica needs to get it in gear and at least get a wide out there soon so folks considering this "new form factor" camera can realize its full "new form factor" potential.

-Marc

I hear you there - I'm just keen to be able to use some of my 645 glass in focal lengths that may take some time to arrive in S fitting, so really either as a stop-gap or as a fill-in for focal lengths I wouldn't use very often at all but would like to have an occasional option on.

In particular my 28D and my Hartblei Super rotator will be useful occasional additions until Leica releases their 24mm and TS solution, neither of which are anticipated in Q1.

It's not optimal, obviously: optimal would be a full range of S glass available now but hey ho, that's not what we got.

But I like the suggestion made by Stephen above: I'm going to order a spare body cap and drill a hole in it for some pinhole fun. New tools always make me feel experimental.

[wattsy]

Originally Posted by guy_mancuso

was trying to find out what more BS was floating around.

I'm not sure what BS is floating around - is it that "the S2 will operate properly in both Manual and Aperture Priority modes, without an S-series lens attached to the camera"? Unless I'm missing something, surely this can be ascertained by just operating the camera with only the body cap attached?

[guy_mancuso]

Not sure you will see Novaflex work on adapters for Phase lenses to the S2 any day soon they also have no aperture rings nor does Hassy H lenses. Keep a eye on those first posts and do we really think Leica will okay there S mount out legally to anyone. I seriously have my doubts on this. This system is not 10000 units out there yet either to make it worth someone to make adapters. All BIG question marks and without real prove and just vague promises i will not buy into that. I shot V lenses for years and really only a handful that will make the grade in a 6 micron world but if there is any lens to look at to bolt on the S2 the V would be it and yes i heard the rumor also but I see no real prove either.

[tashley]

Originally Posted by guy_mancuso

Not sure you will see Novaflex work on adapters for Phase lenses to the S2 any day soon they also have no aperture rings nor does Hassy H lenses. Keep a eye on those first posts and do we really think Leica will okay there S mount out legally to anyone. I seriously have my doubts on this. This system is not 10000 units out there yet either to make it worth someone to make adapters. All BIG question marks and without real prove and just vague promises i will not buy into that. I shot V lenses for years and really only a handful that will make the grade in a 6 micron world but if there is any lens to look at to bolt on the S2 the V would be it and yes i heard the rumor also but I see no real prove either.

Millich was making CV to M adaptors in quite small volumes within a very short time of the release of the M8 so for those older 645 lenses such as my Hartblei with purely mechanical linkages owing to their having their own aperture rings, I can't see why there'd be a big problem or a need for a big volume of production. For those Phase lenses with no aperture rings, I have no idea what the legal or electrical engineering issues are but for up to $500 I'd buy one if it worked.

[J_Miller]

Tim, thank you. I most certainly plan to stick around!

Originally Posted by tashley

Now that's what I call a first post. Astonishingly useful. Please stick around J!

Best, Tim

Guy, I think you might have misunderstood the reason for my post. I was careful not to confuse the details of my earlier post. My intentions for testing these functions of S2 were out of mere curiosity. I realize the ability of the camera to confirm focus, with the use of a non-S2 lens, is not a remarkable feature. However, it seemed like a detail that had been overlooked, or not yet mentioned, and thought some here might find it useful. Its to be expected, as most every other current, medium format 'digital' camera body will allow this same focus confirmation functionality, that the S2 would have the same capability. Now we know for sure!

Regarding the lens / adapter... I did not use a specific adapter. With a bit of preparation, camera/lens support, and proper placement of a Hasselblad C/F-series lens in front of the camera, and operating the S2's shutter release button, I found it was quite easy to allow the camera to confirm focus. Not the most precise of test, but still yielded the result I was looking for. You can find your Mamiya would also perform in such a simple test. A proper adapter would obviously only improve this, and certainly allow focus from minimum distance to infinity. With regard to the AF system, it is confirming focus based on contrast in the viewfinder, not lens setting. The camera has not 'idea' what infinity is.

Sorry, I don't have any photos. Again, I had mere curiosity on my side here, and originally was not looking to share my findings.

I am certainly not holding my breath for the ability to use Leica S2 lenses on any other camera. For one, the S-series lenses were optically designed, and incorporate lenses elements specifically, for use with the S2 sensor, IR filter, and cover glass. Performance with other sensor combinations would be questionable. Secondly, considering the extremely short Flange-to-Focal Plane measurement found on the S2, it would render the S-series lenses useless at normal-to-infinity applications (ie. macro only) on most other 'medium format' cameras. From my approx. measurements, the Flange-to-Focal Plane measurement of the S2 is almost half that of the current Auto-Focus 645 camera systems out there (ie. Hasselblad H-series, Mamiya 645X, Contax 645AF).

Originally Posted by guy_mancuso

What lens was put on the S2 to test that to start with and what adapter. Show me

BTW I can use V lenses with a adapter for the Phase body as well with focus confirmation, this is really nothing new. But the real question is this can and will there be a adapter to use a S2 lens on a Phase or Hassy.

Guy, I am not following your reference to BS... Is that directed at my post, or others. I hope my explanation above helps clarify.

Originally Posted by guy_mancuso

David I already knew this you missed the point and was trying to find out what more BS was floating around.

[jaapv]

Originally Posted by wildlightphoto

We all have our own individual reasons for using any piece of equipment. Until a long Leica APO lens is readily available the S2 body by itself, with a good long lens, is reason enough for me.

It would be a heavy cannon, Doug. Way back, when I was using a 645 system for wildlife, I found I needed a 500 (5.6 iirc) and often had a 2x converter on as well. No chance of shooting hand-held, and regularly a bean-bag wasn't sufficient either. Solid old-fashioned tripod stuff.

[wildlightphoto]

Originally Posted by jaapv

It would be a heavy cannon, Doug. Way back, when I was using a 645 system for wildlife, I found I needed a 500 (5.6 iirc) and often had a 2x converter on as well. No chance of shooting hand-held, and regularly a bean-bag wasn't sufficient either. Solid old-fashioned tripod stuff.

Yes I'm aware it would be hefty. I often use shorter lenses than other wildlife photographers so I expect to do the same with a larger-format camera.

[jsrockit]

Originally Posted by proenca

But truth to be told, it doesnt bring anything new to the arena - it would if it had a good high ISO performance... but from where I stand, its just a nice package rolled up in a 35mm body size... new, yes, ground breaking not exactly.

When you describe it that way, it sure does sound groundbreaking.

[gogopix]

Originally Posted by wildlightphoto

OUTSTANDING!!

The f/6.8 Telyts will cover 645. Time to look into an adapter/conversion. And Novoflex used to make a follow-focus 400mm unit for medium-format cameras. This is sounding better all the time.

For the Visoflex mounts, yes. I have a bunch of 400.560mm 5.6 and 6.8 as well as the Novoflex copies (moments of insanity a few years back!) but they are mix of Viso and R mounts. R mounts won't likely focus except close in.
But what IS the S2 registry distance? with that number a lot of simple conclusions can be drawn.

Now, There are also option to change the geometry, especially with the 'gun grips' A little 'tube trimming' and a mount for S2 and off you go (going back S2 to R or M will be trivial; "...ma, get my lathe...:-)"

Then there is this 800mm 6.3 that I have yet to try.....LOL

[KevinA]

Any MF system is getting less important to general photography. In the days of film a 35mm against a 6x7 at 10x8 print was easy to spot. Now a digital 35 mm against a MF 10x8 print I think you would be hard pushed to tell the difference. For most common repro sizes 35mm digital does as well as MF. With gadgets like the iPad filtering into everyday life and 3D about to be a factor, resolution will take a back seat. I am starting to see on photographic quality standards alone the future need for MF shrinking fast, sure there will always be something that will benefit from the quality, but other than "art" stuff to hang on the wall, professionally the demand is low.
As the 35mm get better and better any MF benefits are getting squeezed into a smaller niche until those benefits are no longer of real importance.

Kevin.

[fotografz]

Hmm, maybe it's more about people "settling" for less, than it is about anything technical.

I wish 35mm DSLRs were as good ... who the heck wants to spend this kind of cash needlessly?

I keep trying to get along without Medium Format ... and the best 35mm DSLRs keep failing to make the grade. Canon 1DsMKIII, Nikon D3X, Sony A900 ... good for a lot of stuff, not good for what I have to shoot.

Maybe in future ... but I seriously doubt it. The film gate is the big problem with 35mm DSLRs. If they change that, then it won't be 35mm DSLRs anymore. Thus the S2.

-Marc

[KevinA]

Originally Posted by fotografz

Hmm, maybe it's more about people "settling" for less, than it is about anything technical.

I wish 35mm DSLRs were as good ... who the heck wants to spend this kind of cash needlessly?

I keep trying to get along without Medium Format ... and the best 35mm DSLRs keep failing to make the grade. Canon 1DsMKIII, Nikon D3X, Sony A900 ... good for a lot of stuff, not good for what I have to shoot.

Maybe in future ... but I seriously doubt it. The film gate is the big problem with 35mm DSLRs. If they change that, then it won't be 35mm DSLRs anymore. Thus the S2.

-Marc

Don't get me wrong I like MF, I like the extra quality, I like a waist level for some photography, I just can't see a commercial place for it. I never met an owner of a 4 colour press yet that would put quality before profit or a designer that would not chop or stretch a picture any which way to make it fit. I don't think the end result has much relation to what it was shot on up to A3. The jobs I've had in the last 4-5 years I could count on the fingers of one foot how many have gone bigger than A3. 100% on screen means nothing when printed, I think viewing and judging at 100% just helps sell more cameras.

[fotografz]

Originally Posted by KevinA

Don't get me wrong I like MF, I like the extra quality, I like a waist level for some photography, I just can't see a commercial place for it. I never met an owner of a 4 colour press yet that would put quality before profit or a designer that would not chop or stretch a picture any which way to make it fit. I don't think the end result has much relation to what it was shot on up to A3. The jobs I've had in the last 4-5 years I could count on the fingers of one foot how many have gone bigger than A3. 100% on screen means nothing when printed, I think viewing and judging at 100% just helps sell more cameras.

I'll have to go ahead and disagree with you on some of these points Kevin.

My reference point would be my previous career as an Executive Creative Director before retiring in Dec. 2008 to indulge in my passion for photography. The career path that took me there was as an Art Director. Places like Y&R, or my own ad agency doing national magazine, outdoor and promotional in-store print as well as national TV. Multi-million$ spent on photography along the way ... only a handful shot with a 35mm DSLR for an "editorial" or lifestyle look, not optimal quality.

IMO, the very arguments that you made above, actually argue "for" rather than "against" the optimization of quality going in.

The fact is that any given image may be a key visual to be used for synergistic repetition in many different media to build continuity and increase consumer "impressions". Uses from the internet, to trade-show displays, to in-store promos that are viewed very closely, etc..

Most certainly images may be "chopped" as you say ... often done to fit various different media specifications. Any given image may be used in a tabloid sized publication, and then in a digest sized ad ... or initially be for full page ad, then a 1/2 page version ... and so on. One of the first jobs I shot after retiring was one where the images were for posting on the internet, AND were printed 8' wide for a trade show presentation. Same images.

If an advertiser shot different images for each possible media application, the photography, retouching, and talent fees would become astronomical.

From my perspective 100 meg. 6X6 sensors would be welcome.


-Marc

[mhoersch]

I would gladly settle for 56x56mm and 50 MB!