How to save $2,700 on an S2

[tashley]

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Don't shoot me here: I know the limitations of the conclusions that can be drawn from this but I know what conclusions I draw!

 

One of these shots was taken using the kit I had to get in order to use my Phase setup at slow shutter speeds, in other words this:

 

Gitzo GT3541LS Series 3 Systematic Tripod (GT3541LS) - Warehouse Express

 

with this:

 

Total cost in sterling including sales taxes, £1750.

 

The other was taken with this, which costs £50 including taxes

 

Manfrotto 785B Modo Maxi Tripod (MN785B) - Warehouse Express

 

The difference in USD terms is about $2,700

 

See if you can tell which rig was used for which shot. Both are 1/4 second at F13 and both used the self-timer with automated MUP.

 

BTW the Cube/Gitzo rig is quite large and really fairly heavy. The Manfrotto weighs less than a kilo including head and folds up to be about a foot long....

 

 

 

 

[peterv]

Clearly, the first photo is much, much sharper :D:D

The Gitzo is worth every Penny!

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[stephengilbert]

Another cute post, Tim, but I can't believe you're suggesting that the Cube is necessary to hold your camera still. You could save another thirty or forty thousand by not buying the S2 at all.

[okram]

No. The lower one is sharper.

[tashley]

Another cute post, Tim, but I can't believe you're suggesting that the Cube is necessary to hold your camera still. You could save another thirty or forty thousand by not buying the S2 at all.

 

You are entirely correct to believe that I am not suggesting that, since I am not.

:D:D

[earleygallery]

You're joking right? I could have taken that shot with my Pannyleica clux, handheld!

[tashley]

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You're joking right? I could have taken that shot with my Pannyleica clux, handheld!

 

And no doubt it would have been just as good. The only minor difference is that these are 100% crops of this, which is a 37.5mp file...

 

 

I had a trip to Iceland more or less ruined last year, through my own naive fault, because I used a 200 quid tripod with a 200 quid head and expected it to deal with the shutter torque of my Phase setup. It doesn't. Even with MUP you can't get reliable sharpness, even at 1/25th, unless you use some very very serious tripod kit! That was, for me, one of many surprises about moving up to MF... another main one being that you have approximately NO DOF, even when you stop down, unless the lens is very wide... something that I think has the potential to bite the rear ends of any 35mm SLR users who fancy upgrading to the S2 hoping that it's what they're used to but with a somewhat larger sensor...

[earleygallery]

Fair enough

 

2nd shot looks sharper to my eye.

[wattsy]

That was, for me, one of many surprises about moving up to MF...

 

35mm and MF are indeed different kettles of fish - which makes me wonder what advantage the S2 really offers outside the studio environment. Does the extra handholdability and smaller size of the S2 count for much if it needs to be mounted on a tripod to take advantage of all that 37.5MP resolution goodness? I'd be interested to see handheld comparisons between the S2 and a high resolution mainstream camera like the D3X (is this something Guy has done in his lengthy review?) Final large print comparisons would be very interesting too but this might be more difficult to do on the web.

Edited January 4, 2010 by wattsy

[telewatt]

You're joking right? I could have taken that shot with my Pannyleica clux, handheld!

 

:D:D..james, you made my day!...

[tashley]

35mm and MF are indeed different kettles of fish - which makes me wonder what advantage the S2 really offers outside the studio environment. Does the extra handholdability and smaller size of the S2 count for much if it needs to be mounted on a tripod to take advantage of all that 37.5MP resolution goodness? I'd be interested to see handheld comparisons between the S2 and a high resolution mainstream camera like the D3X (is this something Guy has done in his lengthy review?) Final large print comparisons would be very interesting too but this might be more difficult to do on the web.

 

Hi Ian,

 

Guy hasn't done that AFAIK but I have done a fair amount of walk-around work with the S2 and I would say that it's very do-able. Whilst, as a party trick, it is possible to handhold and even stroll with a Phase setup, it feels like the proverbial dog standing on its hind legs: what is amazing is not how well it does it but that it can be done at all!

 

Whereas the S2 feels temptingly like an SLR. I find (and every user will be different no doubt) that I can handhold with reasonably reliable results at /125th on a 70mm lens. A rough rule of thumb would therefore be 1/2xf for shutter speeds though you would lose a few there and you might well win a few significantly slower. With the 70mm standard lens, you need to use F5.6 to get a nose and ears in focus at a few paces and that's if you place focus very precisely. 'Using the Sunny 16 Rule' at ISO 160 (and I find ISO 320 pretty useable) you can shoot a 1/160th at F16 on a sunny day. So you have several stops of leeway for handholding a standard or wider, even without stabilisation. However as the light drops and/or the focal length extends, you will run out of comfort zone faster with the S2 than with a FF DSLR, espceially one that has really good higher ISO performance and image stabilisation.

 

So... there will be fewer days and jobs for which I would comfortably use the S2 handheld than there would be where I'd use a FF DSLR but I would still use it quite a lot, and more than my Phase kit, which has other very particular skills.

 

The other thing about the S2 is that I am quite comfortable using it with a monopod, light tripod or just placed on a firm surface at far lower shutter speeds than I would the Phase gear.

 

From my POV therefore the S2 comes between DSLR and MF in terms of useability but has a file quality, at lower ISO, that in large prints at lower ISO I don't think could be distinguished from my Phase P45+ and at higher ISO would easily beat it.

 

I last year made identical shots on a P45+, 5DII with R 50 cron, and M8 and M9 with 50 lux, all at medium aperture. I made a host of prints. You really can tell the difference!

 

If you have time and bandwidth take a look at my sample gallery (http://tashley1.zenfolio.com/p627107524): the shots are not intended to be aesthetically useful, just to show a range of subjects, distances and apertures with both lenses so that people can gauge DOF. This cottage, shot at F3.4 on the 70mm lens and 160th second, with focus on the door, is one of many that might help people see DOF. It's small here but from my gallery you can download a full-sized 90% quality JPEG by clicking on the link below it.

 

 

http://tashley1.zenfolio.com/img/v4/p403460905.jpg

Edited January 4, 2010 by tashley

[Guest guy_mancuso]

35mm and MF are indeed different kettles of fish - which makes me wonder what advantage the S2 really offers outside the studio environment. Does the extra handholdability and smaller size of the S2 count for much if it needs to be mounted on a tripod to take advantage of all that 37.5MP resolution goodness? I'd be interested to see handheld comparisons between the S2 and a high resolution mainstream camera like the D3X (is this something Guy has done in his lengthy review?) Final large print comparisons would be very interesting too but this might be more difficult to do on the web.

 

Well I maybe a bad example since I have to say I am a rock with handholding but I can get any MF system down to 1/30 . M8 I went as low as 1/8 or 1/4 . I also don't fall into the category of MF needs to be tripod mounted either. I get excellent results handheld all the time so I hear the whining geese about this all the time but honestly I do laugh when I hear it . Sure it is bulkier , heavier and such but it actually also adds to being able to hold it better for some. It to me is more about balance. The S2 is good though and very much like a R9 /DMR. More is the concern about working with bigger sensors and bigger mirrors. I'll take the MF trade off any day over 35mm.

[markowich]

And no doubt it would have been just as good. The only minor difference is that these are 100% crops of this, which is a 37.5mp file...

 

 

I had a trip to Iceland more or less ruined last year, through my own naive fault, because I used a 200 quid tripod with a 200 quid head and expected it to deal with the shutter torque of my Phase setup. It doesn't. Even with MUP you can't get reliable sharpness, even at 1/25th, unless you use some very very serious tripod kit! That was, for me, one of many surprises about moving up to MF... another main one being that you have approximately NO DOF, even when you stop down, unless the lens is very wide... something that I think has the potential to bite the rear ends of any 35mm SLR users who fancy upgrading to the S2 hoping that it's what they're used to but with a somewhat larger sensor...

 

tim,

you should have taken the D3x to iceland. might have saved you big dough---)))

p

[tashley]

tim,

you should have taken the D3x to iceland. might have saved you big dough---)))

p

 

I know, I know, I have gotten close so many times to a D3X and a D700 on the side, I just don't like that processed look the files have and the colours aren't to my taste :D:D

[markowich]

I know, I know, I have gotten close so many times to a D3X and a D700 on the side, I just don't like that processed look the files have and the colours aren't to my taste :D:D

 

well they are not M9 colors but neither they give S2 noise. and there are VR lenses. i can handhold 200mm f2, 1/90 s. tack sharp. nice colors too, if you use the right lenses.

iknowiknowiknowiknow...why did i get the S2 in the first place? well not even nikonland is perfect...

peter

ps:it is easy though to match the colors of your book shelf shots with D3x.

[markowich]

well they are not M9 colors but neither they give S2 noise. and there are VR lenses. i can handhold 200mm f2, 1/90 s. tack sharp. nice colors too, if you use the right lenses.

iknowiknowiknowiknow...why did i get the S2 in the first place? well not even nikonland is perfect...

peter

ps:it is easy though to match the colors of your book shelf shots with D3x.

 

ps: the color response of the D3s is excellent. it will only take a few months until this trickles down (or, actually, up) the next nikon FX high MPX body....february.

p

[tashley]

well they are not M9 colors but neither they give S2 noise. and there are VR lenses. i can handhold 200mm f2, 1/90 s. tack sharp. nice colors too, if you use the right lenses.

iknowiknowiknowiknow...why did i get the S2 in the first place? well not even nikonland is perfect...

peter

ps:it is easy though to match the colors of your book shelf shots with D3x.

 

What I'd give for some good IS or VR on a MF system. That and small, accurate, moveable crosshairs for focus. I don't have Guy's handholding skills though in truth I think I'm not too shabby, so I do find the subtlety of the S2's mirror and shutter are great and I like the lack of lag when you set the AF up right...

 

I was slightly teasing about the colours of the Nikon, and I know you can get anything to look like anything, almost, with the right PP but Jono Slack, who has the best colour vision of anyone I know, won't go near Nikon colours and he is my guru!

[markowich]

What I'd give for some good IS or VR on a MF system. That and small, accurate, moveable crosshairs for focus. I don't have Guy's handholding skills though in truth I think I'm not too shabby, so I do find the subtlety of the S2's mirror and shutter are great and I like the lack of lag when you set the AF up right...

 

I was slightly teasing about the colours of the Nikon, and I know you can get anything to look like anything, almost, with the right PP but Jono Slack, who has the best colour vision of anyone I know, won't go near Nikon colours and he is my guru!

 

let jono try the D3s then... i again refer to iliah borg's color measurements posted on Dprreview.

p

[Guest guy_mancuso]

What I'd give for some good IS or VR on a MF system. That and small, accurate, moveable crosshairs for focus. I don't have Guy's handholding skills though in truth I think I'm not too shabby, so I do find the subtlety of the S2's mirror and shutter are great and I like the lack of lag when you set the AF up right...

 

I was slightly teasing about the colours of the Nikon, and I know you can get anything to look like anything, almost, with the right PP but Jono Slack, who has the best colour vision of anyone I know, won't go near Nikon colours and he is my guru!

 

Yes the S2 in the mirror , shutter and lag area are very good. To me it is very much on the level of a like a D3x in that area. Obviously we could not measure this but it felt good and maybe the most responsive in MF. I did just get the new DF for the Phase system and it is worlds apart from the previous version but it is louder than the S2 and is felt more because of the noise but certainly a big improvement with the final shipping software. I honestly don't see worlds difference than 35mm although slower of course. Certainly that is expected in MF land. A lot of this area with handling is really personal preference some folks don't like 35mm styling and some love it and the MF system are certainly different. To me I could go either way and not really any advantage over the other and too some the s2 is maybe a better handling cam. Depends a lot on hand size , weight distribution and feel . The S2 lenses are heavier than my lenses for example but my body is heavier so it's a balance thing for many. Really need to get your hands on all the systems and see what is comfortable. If your NOT comfortable than nothing is worth buying, you will just be unhappy and at 30k plus for these systems that is not a good thing.

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[tashley]

Yes the S2 in the mirror , shutter and lag area are very good. To me it is very much on the level of a like a D3x in that area. Obviously we could not measure this but it felt good and maybe the most responsive in MF. I did just get the new DF for the Phase system and it is worlds apart from the previous version but it is louder than the S2 and is felt more because of the noise but certainly a big improvement with the final shipping software. I honestly don't see worlds difference than 35mm although slower of course. Certainly that is expected in MF land. A lot of this area with handling is really personal preference some folks don't like 35mm styling and some love it and the MF system are certainly different. To me I could go either way and not really any advantage over the other and too some the s2 is maybe a better handling cam. Depends a lot on hand size , weight distribution and feel . The S2 lenses are heavier than my lenses for example but my body is heavier so it's a balance thing for many. Really need to get your hands on all the systems and see what is comfortable. If your NOT comfortable than nothing is worth buying, you will just be unhappy and at 30k plus for these systems that is not a good thing.

 

I agree 100% with what Guy says here: my version of it is that in the end, in terms of sensor IQ (unless you have a P65+) the S2 at least holds its own against similar MF systems. Beyond that it's down to the ergos, the haptics and the optics. For me, the S2 is growing day by day into the nicest user experience I've had for quite a while but others may prefer the weigh and balance (and possibly extra flexibility?) of something else.