S2 shoot and some P45+ comparisons

[mhoersch]

Originally Posted by R10dreamer

I just wish someone would take some interesting images when they test these cameras. Back light. Side light, Hi-key, colorful fabrics, multiple ethnicity for different skin tones under the same light, flare, something/anything but an iron fence, bored model with her leg cut off.

Amen! But perhaps the fact that we still haven't seen any interesting photos made with the S2 shows that the target group for Leica's latest offering isn't all that well defined.

[wildlightphoto]

While the pixel-peeing comparisons with other MFD cameras is mildly interesting what gets my attention is the differences in ergonomics, handling and field usability in general. From my perspective, the initial reports suggest this is one of the major differences between the S2 and other MFD cameras.

[tashley]

Originally Posted by R10dreamer

I just wish someone would take some interesting images when they test these cameras. Back light. Side light, Hi-key, colorful fabrics, multiple ethnicity for different skin tones under the same light, flare, something/anything but an iron fence, bored model with her leg cut off.

I agree - but unfortunately one gets very little time alone with the camera and one one has to share the studio space and model that is allocated, so one can't even really adjust the lighting too much. And then one charms the camera away from the studio and into the street and again the light is flat, the location and time limited. So the camera doesn't get the workout we all want to see.

I'm a big fan of that 70's Concept Rock album cover look on your website, it's really cool retro-chic and reminds me of those Yes LPs of olden times; but you have to admit that it takes a lot of setup time and resource to get that look!

Best

Tim

[earleygallery]

The skin tones from the S2 look much nicer, but.....that red dress looks way too saturated to the point of losing detail, and the S2 images don't appear as sharp to me, from these comparisons anyway.

Anyone else care to comment?

[earleygallery]

Tim?

[lct]

Originally Posted by earleygallery

The skin tones from the S2 look much nicer, but.....that red dress looks way too saturated to the point of losing detail, and the S2 images don't appear as sharp to me, from these comparisons anyway.
Anyone else care to comment?

Well i see a bit of red cast and the DoF is shallow of course but in focus parts look sharp to me.

[ptomsu]

For me the images look great, as great as they can get with a first kind of final version.

Especially the drawing of the lenses is typically Leica for me and I expect some improvements with coming profiles and FW versions. Remember, also Leica needs the thousands of inputs they can get now as the camera is in hand of many shooters to improve their FW. Remember how long it takes for Phase to come to that level wen they release a new back.

So for me the results are on the right side. And I also do not expect a 37MP sensor to give as many details as a 60MP sensor, there is no way to achieve that, even with best glass and best processing. But the results seem to be pretty on par with existing 40MP solutions at least and as mentioned the lenses do have a much higher potential, which needs to be worked out in future versions.

[tashley]

If I had to really go out on a limb I would say that the file quality, excluding issues of colour profiling etc, is at least as good as the P45+ and better at higher ISO, and that is without the glass, which will I am quite sure be better than the Phamiya glass. People bang on about how good that glass is but the 80D, whilst incredibly sharp, is never lyrical, and the 28D has soft corners on the P45+ and has never impressed me wildly.

Clearly the useability of the S2 is better than any current Phase or Mamiya offering, including the new AFD (and yes I have shot that camera)...

So remaining questions are....

Is the S2 file quality as good as or better than the P40+ at higher ISO?
Is the S2 AF as good as or better than the new 'accurate' mode on the new AFD?


Otherwise I think everything else you're seeing in my results is down to the fact that I gave default processing to both and didn't make any real effort to balance colours or profile output: clearly shots from both cameras could have been made to look better with more treatment.

[ptomsu]

Originally Posted by tashley

Is the S2 file quality as good as or better than the P40+ at higher ISO?
Is the S2 AF as good as or better than the new 'accurate' mode on the new AFD?

When are you going to be able to test it against a P40+?

This is exactly one of the only competitors I have in mind for a MF system - say I will either buy a Phase system with the P40+ or the S System.

[markowich]

Originally Posted by tashley

If I had to really go out on a limb I would say that the file quality, excluding issues of colour profiling etc, is at least as good as the P45+ and better at higher ISO, and that is without the glass, which will I am quite sure be better than the Phamiya glass. People bang on about how good that glass is but the 80D, whilst incredibly sharp, is never lyrical, and the 28D has soft corners on the P45+ and has never impressed me wildly.

Clearly the useability of the S2 is better than any current Phase or Mamiya offering, including the new AFD (and yes I have shot that camera)...

So remaining questions are....

Is the S2 file quality as good as or better than the P40+ at higher ISO?
Is the S2 AF as good as or better than the new 'accurate' mode on the new AFD?


Otherwise I think everything else you're seeing in my results is down to the fact that I gave default processing to both and didn't make any real effort to balance colours or profile output: clearly shots from both cameras could have been made to look better with more treatment.

i have very expectations in the H4D. the HC lenses beat their mamiya counterparts and they have a central shutter (good for who needs it). it is my feeling that those who want to decide on their future MF system should wait until the H4D is out to compare. most likely the new AF system will beat everything in the MF market.
after all, we are talking many thousands of $$$...unwise to make a rash decision. peter

[tashley]

Originally Posted by markowich

i have very expectations in the H4D. the HC lenses beat their mamiya counterparts and they have a central shutter (good for who needs it). it is my feeling that those who want to decide on their future MF system should wait until the H4D is out to compare. most likely the new AF system will beat everything in the MF market.
after all, we are talking many thousands of $$$...unwise to make a rash decision. peter

Fair point but the Hassy is several months away and to be honest I think their announcement was meant as an S2 spoiler, intended to get people to delay their S2 decisions. Which means the Hassy might well be more of a ghost than the S2!

;-)

[tashley]

Originally Posted by ptomsu

When are you going to be able to test it against a P40+?

This is exactly one of the only competitors I have in mind for a MF system - say I will either buy a Phase system with the P40+ or the S System.

Sorry to say I have no plans to make that comparison - I'm in no way a pro tester, so I can only compare what I own or get offered the use of. But I have seen a number of P40+ files shot by someone I know and whilst they are impressive I would make a wild guess that (except for in low res pixel binning mode) the S2 is better at 1250...

For me the main advantage of the P40+ is that the smaller sensor does not stretch the 28D lenses weak corners like the P45+ does.

[ptomsu]

Originally Posted by tashley

Sorry to say I have no plans to make that comparison - I'm in no way a pro tester, so I can only compare what I own or get offered the use of. But I have seen a number of P40+ files shot by someone I know and whilst they are impressive I would make a wild guess that (except for in low res pixel binning mode) the S2 is better at 1250...

For me the main advantage of the P40+ is that the smaller sensor does not stretch the 28D lenses weak corners like the P45+ does.

Ok, so what you say (conclude) is, that it is better to go for a P40+ in order not to fall into the issues produced by the lenses of Phamiya.

I had the same impressions and this is the main reason I am still waiting and looking out for the final S2 results - of course also with WA lenses (at least 35)

[vieri]

Originally Posted by tashley

Sorry to say I have no plans to make that comparison - I'm in no way a pro tester, so I can only compare what I own or get offered the use of. But I have seen a number of P40+ files shot by someone I know and whilst they are impressive I would make a wild guess that (except for in low res pixel binning mode) the S2 is better at 1250...

For me the main advantage of the P40+ is that the smaller sensor does not stretch the 28D lenses weak corners like the P45+ does.

Originally Posted by ptomsu

Ok, so what you say (conclude) is, that it is better to go for a P40+ in order not to fall into the issues produced by the lenses of Phamiya.

I had the same impressions and this is the main reason I am still waiting and looking out for the final S2 results - of course also with WA lenses (at least 35)

Well, first of all thank you Tim for the effort and for sharing your findings with us, much appreciated.

Regarding the WA issue on Phamiya, IMHO there is a much serious issue with the WA on the S2: there is NO real WA for the S2, unless you consider the 35 mm, a lens giving you 28 mm FOV (compared to 135 mm) on the S2, the wider you will ever want to get...

With Phamiya, you can use your 28 on the P65 and get really wide (17 mm FOV on 135), with slightly soft(er) corners; on the P45 is still about 20 mm (FOV on 135 format,) but the 35 mm on the S2...? About 28 mm FOV in 135, which isn't nearly wide enough for a lot of applications IMHO. I hope that Leica will add some real WA in the lineup, otherwise they will be missing a serious part of the market.

Just my .02.

[tashley]

Originally Posted by ptomsu

Ok, so what you say (conclude) is, that it is better to go for a P40+ in order not to fall into the issues produced by the lenses of Phamiya.

I had the same impressions and this is the main reason I am still waiting and looking out for the final S2 results - of course also with WA lenses (at least 35)

Hi!

I am slightly confused about what you're saying here... the P40+ uses Phamiya ( = Phase or Mamiya) lenses... so if you use the P40+ you will have whatever issues the Phamiya lenses have BUT I stress that the Phamiya lenses are mostly very good. The Phase 80D is one of the sharpest lenses I have ever seen, it is just a bit clinical in the bokeh department. The 28D is very sharp too, unless you look at the edges on a P45+ or 65+ sized sensor...

[tashley]

Originally Posted by vieri

Well, first of all thank you Tim for the effort and for sharing your findings with us, much appreciated.

Regarding the WA issue on Phamiya, IMHO there is a much serious issue with the WA on the S2: there is NO real WA for the S2, unless you consider the 35 mm, a lens giving you 28 mm FOV (compared to 135 mm) on the S2, the wider you will ever want to get...

With Phamiya, you can use your 28 on the P65 and get really wide (17 mm FOV on 135), with slightly soft(er) corners; on the P45 is still about 20 mm (FOV on 135 format,) but the 35 mm on the S2...? About 28 mm FOV in 135, which isn't nearly wide enough for a lot of applications IMHO. I hope that Leica will add some real WA in the lineup, otherwise they will be missing a serious part of the market.

Just my .02.

Hi Vieri, I am very pleased to see you here!

Also I agree with what you say. It is very hard to make comparisons when none of the parameters line up exactly... and the S2 does not currently promise a 'real' wide.

I'm a bit lost at the moment: I want to keep the flexibility of using a Cambo or Phamiya body but with the Cambo I dislike having to make LCC profiles and not being able to focus other than by guesstimate and on the Phamiya I dislike the clunky feel of the body. So the S2 offers a much cleaner user experience with weather sealing and great (but limited in range) glass but it does not offer movements... and when the promised TS lens arrives the movements will be on the front rather than the back, so parallax will sometimes be a problem.

If someone offered me a good-ish trade-in for all my Phase gear now, I would probably do it. But the truth is, a realistic cost of switch to an equivalent S2 system (compared to the Phase setup I have) would purchase me an upgrade to p65+ and a Phase 645DF and some new Schneider glass. But I'd be saddled with legacy Phamiya glass too, and less good usability and less effective weather sealing and a shutter like a barn door.

This is really, really not a no-brainer. What it comes down to is ultimate performance versus usability... and it is not yet clear that a P65+/Phamiya645FD/Schneider-Phase Leaf lens combo will give better ultimate performance than the S2. I am pretty sure it will... but at what cost in terms of clunkiness and "my older lenses aren't up to it" problems...

???

tough call...

[vieri]

Originally Posted by tashley

Hi Vieri, I am very pleased to see you here!

Also I agree with what you say. It is very hard to make comparisons when none of the parameters line up exactly... and the S2 does not currently promise a 'real' wide.

I'm a bit lost at the moment: I want to keep the flexibility of using a Cambo or Phamiya body but with the Cambo I dislike having to make LCC profiles and not being able to focus other than by guesstimate and on the Phamiya I dislike the clunky feel of the body. So the S2 offers a much cleaner user experience with weather sealing and great (but limited in range) glass but it does not offer movements... and when the promised TS lens arrives the movements will be on the front rather than the back, so parallax will sometimes be a problem.

If someone offered me a good-ish trade-in for all my Phase gear now, I would probably do it. But the truth is, a realistic cost of switch to an equivalent S2 system (compared to the Phase setup I have) would purchase me an upgrade to p65+ and a Phase 645DF and some new Schneider glass. But I'd be saddled with legacy Phamiya glass too, and less good usability and less effective weather sealing and a shutter like a barn door.

This is really, really not a no-brainer. What it comes down to is ultimate performance versus usability... and it is not yet clear that a P65+/Phamiya645FD/Schneider-Phase Leaf lens combo will give better ultimate performance than the S2. I am pretty sure it will... but at what cost in terms of clunkiness and "my older lenses aren't up to it" problems...

???

tough call...

Hello Tim, is great to be here! Actually I always read the forum, just don't post much here (nor in general) these days...

I see your dilemma, I guess it's something that everyone who wants to go digital MF has to deal with. To me, the choice was easy: I went for Phase, an existing system (who can actually buy a S2 yet?) with maximum flexibility - open system - legacy lenses - etc, added Silvestri (Bicam & S5) with 4 lenses to take care of all movements, product, architectural, etc with amazing IQ & greater ease than Cambo etc (sliding adaptor for focussing is a blessing that Cambo is sorely missing!), and I am now looking forward for the DF body. I am keeping my D3 for low light, concert, clubs and such shooting; if the DF body will give me a decent shutter lag (the actual one with the 645 AF is so abysmal that I actually use the shutter sound as a pre-flash/like warning for customers to know when I will be shooting! Is THAT long... using a film back on the 645 AF, however, there is no lag at all, so I assume the DF body can and hopefully be much better in this regard), and if the P65+ ISO 1600 will be usable enough, I will be able to give up to the D3 completely and stick with Phase for digital, and Leica Ms for street & portability; the new leaf shutter lenses will take care of high-speed syncro, and I will be a very happy camper and a less impoverished one, too, compared to the price of a S2 kit that will not be able to do all I need (lack of a real wide WA is inexcusable IMHO).

Just my .02...

[ptomsu]

Originally Posted by vieri

Well, first of all thank you Tim for the effort and for sharing your findings with us, much appreciated.

Regarding the WA issue on Phamiya, IMHO there is a much serious issue with the WA on the S2: there is NO real WA for the S2, unless you consider the 35 mm, a lens giving you 28 mm FOV (compared to 135 mm) on the S2, the wider you will ever want to get...

With Phamiya, you can use your 28 on the P65 and get really wide (17 mm FOV on 135), with slightly soft(er) corners; on the P45 is still about 20 mm (FOV on 135 format,) but the 35 mm on the S2...? About 28 mm FOV in 135, which isn't nearly wide enough for a lot of applications IMHO. I hope that Leica will add some real WA in the lineup, otherwise they will be missing a serious part of the market.

Just my .02.

The WA limit for the S System is only for the beginning 35, there will more WAs follow, look at the Leica site.

So also WA would be covered nicely, actually far nicer compared to other MF solutions, with the S2.

[ptomsu]

Originally Posted by tashley

Hi Vieri, I am very pleased to see you here!

Also I agree with what you say. It is very hard to make comparisons when none of the parameters line up exactly... and the S2 does not currently promise a 'real' wide.

I'm a bit lost at the moment: I want to keep the flexibility of using a Cambo or Phamiya body but with the Cambo I dislike having to make LCC profiles and not being able to focus other than by guesstimate and on the Phamiya I dislike the clunky feel of the body. So the S2 offers a much cleaner user experience with weather sealing and great (but limited in range) glass but it does not offer movements... and when the promised TS lens arrives the movements will be on the front rather than the back, so parallax will sometimes be a problem.

If someone offered me a good-ish trade-in for all my Phase gear now, I would probably do it. But the truth is, a realistic cost of switch to an equivalent S2 system (compared to the Phase setup I have) would purchase me an upgrade to p65+ and a Phase 645DF and some new Schneider glass. But I'd be saddled with legacy Phamiya glass too, and less good usability and less effective weather sealing and a shutter like a barn door.

This is really, really not a no-brainer. What it comes down to is ultimate performance versus usability... and it is not yet clear that a P65+/Phamiya645FD/Schneider-Phase Leaf lens combo will give better ultimate performance than the S2. I am pretty sure it will... but at what cost in terms of clunkiness and "my older lenses aren't up to it" problems...

???

tough call...

Why not keep just the Phase back and buy a Tech Cam you need and sell the rest of the Phase gear and buy a S2?

I am almost at this stage now, having no money invested currently in MF.

I think I will go with a P45+ (maybe used) and an Alpa cam with 1 or 2 great lenses (Schneider or Rodenstock) for serious landscape.

And a S2 with 3 lenses 70 and 180 being fix starters. Will see what I need in the WA area.

And good thing then, I still can remain in C1 for processing all my files :-))

[farbtupfer]

Originally Posted by ptomsu

And good thing then, I still can remain in C1 for processing all my files :-))

Yes but actually C1 has no S2 profile...