Leica S2: just 4 fun or professional?

[satijntje]

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Now, with the successor of the S2 on the market, prices for second hand S2's getting well below the 10.000 Euro barrier even with a 70mm lens included.

 

As an owner of a M240 with a few prime lenses, I kept however always looking into the S2 corner, but kept my M Camera (M9 and now M240) due to smaller size and higher IOS capabilities.

 

I'm wondering if I'm alone with this "looking into the S2 corner". Must be not, as I'm quite a normal person , so I thought there must be others that might be doing the same.

 

I would be interested if there are S2 owners that use this expensive tool only purely for private use.

Are there and ex-M owners that have sold their M gear to get into the S2 area? Any regrets?

 

Selling my M240 with a Nocti will nearly finance a purchase of a S2 with one or 2 lenses if I look at current Ebay prices. But will I regret it?

 

If the S2 is not used in a studio, it is the weight on the camera/lens combo not getting on your nerves when carrying it for several hours?

 

On the other hand, have you as an S or S2 owner already thought of making the change to the M240 corner?

 

To overcome the bad ISO performance I was thinking of the possibility of adding a SONY RX1 to the S.

 

A lot of questions, but your answers might give me a better understanding of the use of this camera.

 

p.s. I only shoot for private purposes, only fun! Inside, some family pics and outside some streetshooting, people, architecture and that's it.

 

Printing:not really a lot, some pics of the kids are plastering my walls, largest sizes about 60*40cm.

 

 

Looking very much forward to your thoughts and your opinions!

 

Of course the answers here will be biassed as I'm posting this in an S section, maybe the answers are just the opposite to the answers I could get in the M section of this forum!

 

John

 

p.s. One thing I forgot to mention, due to my problems with focusing wit the M (yes, indeed the focus peaking helps a lot), my main reason for a possible swap to S is the AF of the S(2).

Edited February 8, 2014 by satijntje

[hoppyman]

Hi John. I shoot a variety of topics with the M (Typ 240) and have recently had the opportunity to shoot for a few days with the S (Typ 006) outdoors and in studio with models.

i think that the first consideration is whether you are looking from need or want. Nothing wrong with either of course.

 

I don't think that the strengths of the S system are a good match for your described purposes. Something like the X Vario might be better to add to your M system.

 

For me, those S system strengths above all are, stunning resolution from the lens and sensor combination, much larger dynamic range and superbly natural colour rendering (and WB performance).

 

Where it may not work as well for you is the size and weight, the limited high ISO, and the single AF point which very often needs manipulation of locking with release and/or joystick control then recomposition. In critical focus it just is not fast and more so with the 120 for example which has to operate from infinity down to close focus. Some of that is addressed with technique of course.

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[erlingmm]

John, I had similar deliberations as you. I got a good offer on a S2 kit (S2+30/70/120) in the fall of 2012, and managed to exchange some less used M lenses (Noctilux, 90 'cron APO, 18 SE) to minimize cash exposure to under 10.000 USD. I kept the MM, and have later bought back an M9-P (cheap), which I originally sold at the same time, having ordered the M (which did not arrive for a year, and then I declined).

 

I have been very happy with the S2 kit, and particularly with the 120mm. ISO is better than I thought, 640 is fine, above that needs some work. I love the ergonomics of the S2. The lenses are fantastic. It is more vulnerable to camera shake, but I have developed some supporting techniques, and the handgrip helps a lot. I have travelled extensively with it (NYC, Vegas, SF, Prague, Barcelona), the special case helps a lot on flights, but the Billingham 550 is also great for a big kit.

 

I would not have it as my only camera, but it gives me great joy, and yes, I am an amateur.

Edited February 8, 2014 by erlingmm
typo

[satijntje]

It is indeed more a "I want" rather then "I need".

I'm aware that the pics will not be better then with the M240.

 

The Vario I had already for some time, no it's not for me.

Great IQ, but in a way I do not get attainted to this P&S device.

 

 

For me, a camera must give me a pleasure factor.

The M gives it definitively, the vario not, the RX100 that I own also not, and I'm not sure about the S2.

Hold it once in my hands, and I got already attained to it. Call is "love on first sight" :-)

 

I will wait some more time with the purchase, maybe I can have the S2 for a day from a friend on loan, but it will involve some 500km driving for me.....

 

John

 

 

BTW, the S2 advertisement here in the classifieds is a good offer IMO

Edited February 8, 2014 by satijntje

[hoppyman]

It is indeed more a "I want" rather then "I need".

I'm aware that the pics will not be better then with the M240.

 

Oh no, sorry, the S system photos ARE better than those with the M

Whether or not you can achieve that or use it or notice any important differences in your applications is the discussion.

I shot for a day in bright/ high contrast outdoor light (an art nude workshop) and then a second day in a studio with both systems. The dynamic range and resolved detail from the S files is phenomenol (and I have high end M lenses too).

[mwilliamsphotography]

No one can predict if you will connect with the S system John, all we can do is share our experiences.

 

The S2 was developed by Leica to compete in the professional market against other Medium Format systems cameras such as Hasselblad and Phase One. The advantage Leica exploited was building a ground-up high performance camera without concern for compatibility with previous accessories or legacy optics often designed in the film era … allowing them to leverage their well known optical expertise and reputation to make lenses strictly for the digital age.

 

Leica touted the S2 as competitive with a 50 meg MFD camera in terms of Image Quality mostly because their lenses made up for having a smaller sensor than a Hasselblad H4D/50. As a former Hasselblad owner, and a current S2P owner, I would have to agree that they did exactly that.

 

That positioning hasn't stopped non-professionals from buying into the S system to get that level of Image Quality, and to get certain performance aspects the M camera can't match (AF and use of lighting being obvious ones).

 

I also am of the opinion that neither the M9 nor the M240 can equal that IQ in areas of use the S2 was designed for (I'm a long time M9 user and have recently tested the M240 extensively). I also can say that the S2 37meg camera produces better IQ than the D800, and Sony A7R 36 meg camera (which I happen to own), even with Leica R lenses attached. Size and digital optics matter.

 

Medium Format cameras are prized for their different DOF rendering, and their color fidelity. One need not print huge to achieve those MFD attributes. The S2/S is no exception.

 

The S system is a dual shutter camera, and with leaf shutter lenses can be used with strobes (or even the shoe-mount flash) up to 1/1000 flash sync … a huge advantage that escapes most non pro owners. It is the reason I don't care about high ISO performance when shooting jobs … I use lighting for anything above 640 … and do so even with my cameras that can easily do high ISO. High ISO is a compromise in IQ regardless of camera.

 

I use the S system for professional work, and as my personal camera. I do not sling it over my shoulder to take to parties (unless I'm being paid to do so), or go out to dinner and an evening stroll about town … I may take a M camera or the Sony A7R on those occasions.

 

I have the S2 set up for shooting portraits, and I use it a lot for wedding photography including candid work. I have taken it on vacation more often than other cameras despite its size.

 

I have it set up with a hand strap and a springy shoulder strap that allows me to comfortably carry it for longer periods of time. I use a mono-pod on occasions where it will aid in better IQ. I love the tactile feel of the S2P, the speed and simplicity of operation, and the flat out build quality.

 

I no longer have a color M camera. I shoot rangefinder work in B&W with a M Monochrome.

 

I could easily reduce my M system, and jettison most of my 35mm DSLR system in favor of the S system if I had to. As I reduce my paid work in semi-retirement, I may do exactly that. I'd like to expand my lenses to include the S zoom and new S24 and S45mm lenses.

 

Hope this offers some insight,

 

- Marc

[Jeff S]

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I was somewhat tempted by the discounts on the S2 (as an amateur), but since I'd want to use it primarily for landscape work, the lack of LV is a big disadvantage. I anticipate a switch to CMOS at some point.

 

There are a few folks on other forums who use the S successfully for street work, so it can be done.** For me, the M system is already ideal for that. Plenty good enough IQ, especially at my moderate print sizes.

 

Only you can assess your needs and preferences. Maybe you can find a friendly dealer willing to let you try one out.

 

** edit…. Here is a post from LUF.

 

Jeff

Edited February 10, 2014 by Jeff S

[earleygallery]

Dare I say it John, but it would seem that the S is too much camera for your needs. You take photos for fun and don't print too many/print large.

 

Fine if you just want the S, but my guess is that it would become too much of a burden to carry around for casual use.

 

Whilst this is a Leica forum and we all love Leica of course, it's sometimes better to look at the other options that are out there, or wait to see what the new T camera looks like.

[erlingmm]

Dare I say it John, but it would seem that the S is too much camera for your needs. You take photos for fun and don't print too many/print large.

 

Fine if you just want the S, but my guess is that it would become too much of a burden to carry around for casual use.

 

Whilst this is a Leica forum and we all love Leica of course, it's sometimes better to look at the other options that are out there, or wait to see what the new T camera looks like.

 

I don't understand how you can say this with any confidence. John sound genuinely curious and motivated to try it out, and is himself an experienced Leica user. His starting point sounds very much like my own. I would encourage John to try it out, as a loan/rent, or with an experienced dealer.

[earleygallery]

I don't understand how you can say this with any confidence. John sound genuinely curious and motivated to try it out, and is himself an experienced Leica user. His starting point sounds very much like my own. I would encourage John to try it out, as a loan/rent, or with an experienced dealer.

 

As I said, it's fine if he's set on owning an S simply because he likes it, why not? But, for his needs the S is overkill - he says he doesn't print much and then to moderate size. He doesn't need the quality that the S can provide but says he does need (want) AF. He raises concerns about using such a large/heavy camera.

 

I don't think it's a good solution to his needs.

[satijntje]

Thanks a lot for all this useful information.

One important issue is the AF for me.

I'm getting close to 60y (and my eyey too:mad:)

 

I will take my time to make up my decision

 

John

[menos I M6]

John, I am an amateur, not making a living by means of photography.

I take photography rather seriously though and my preference is handheld use of portable cameras in different formats, built into a small kit that can be easily carried in a compact shoulder bag.

 

First off. Read Marc's post above carefully - a great short description about the merits of the S system.

Second, do not be afraid of the S system in terms of it's designed purpose, market position or cost.

I advice of course, to be very informed about the cost factor, which does not only consist of a lower and lower entry level with second hand gear, but also take into account potential cost of repairs in case of damage beyond manufacturing issues.

 

These costs can be several magnitudes higher than with 35mm gear - just be aware of that.

Also it seems, that unlike with Leica M gear (especially certain vintage lenses), Leica S gear does NOT have any potential appreciation. It is designed first and foremost to be treated as a business asset to be depreciated in ones business and exchanged once it reached it's useful life time - it is not a collectible that can be used "for free" during it's time spending in ones dry cabinet for a potential future resale.

 

Money spent means to a big account not getting it back if you are not making money with the photography, you produce with it. This makes the S system (any MFD system) less excusable financially to many hobby photographers.

 

 

I were looking for a long time for one medium format system, which I could carry in a one body + 1 or 2 lenses with me as secondary gear, when shooting mainly 35mm (mostly Leica M digital).

I went through all known major film based systems for this purpose, until I was offered a good deal on a second hand S2 body (my second MFD after a Mamiya ZD), which I supplemented with two Leica S lenses and several adapters which allow me to adapt certain lenses I was not willing to spend for equivalent Leica S lenses (this is mostly a 120 Macro and longer lenses), than offered by Leica.

 

My S2 has (except for a few anticipated quirks) been extremely reliable.

Although one major advantage of the S system over the 35mm M is clearly resolution (at the price of DOF and low light capabilities), output size is not the only advantage and not my main reason to use the S2.

 

As Marc mentioned, the image quality beyond resolution, mainly in acuity, colours, optical qualities of S lenses, quality of subject isolation and simple operation of the camera system (very much in the spirit of a Leica M with simplistic and straight forward controls) are very strong points for adding a Leica S to your 35mm gear.

 

I would advice against selling your 35mm gear and exchanging it for a S system, as I think it is a lot more viable to slim down ones 35mm system and supplement it with a Leica S kit.

 

I prefer the Leica S2 mostly for portraits, detail shots, landscape/ cityscape shots (where detail and tones are paramount).

 

I feel, that although regarding MF camera systems, the Leica S AF system is absolutely first rate, a Leica S is nowhere near as fast, agile, adaptive and easy to use as a Leica M rangefinder in quickly changing environments.

So for the purpose of candid shots, walkabouts, fast changing scenes, I strongly prefer the Leica M (mostly using a M Monochrome).

 

The Leica S system does not exchange for a 35mm M system (and was not designed in that spirit) - it can ideally supplement it though and in regards of image quality, auto focus, lens reach (up to 180mm with Leica S lenses and well beyond with adapted lenses from other manufacturers) and of course flash extend greatly the technical possibilities of your gear.

 

Do understand though, that if you would try to press a Leica S into 35mm mode and try to use it as your M240, you might have a very hard time with a steep learning curve and might even fail in trying to do so.

Understand, how different it is and use it in this spirit to your advantage.

[topoxforddoc]

Now if I could use my 180 Summicron and 280 Apo-Telyt reliably, I’d be looking at one in a flash. Although I love my two DMRs for their wonderful colour rendition at low ISO and the excellent VF, the S2 (or S) would be wonderful successors. But I just love my 180/2 so much. It gets me great shots at gigs and works just beautifully.

[John McMaster]

For the distances you are working at for concerts, the German adaptor may work for you? He says that the 280/4 will focus to ~18m, not sure what the image circle of the 180/2 is but it would not focus to such a great distance and both will have the effective focal length of 80% of marked....

 

john

[topoxforddoc]

John,

 

Thanks. I read up about the adapter. The focal length change is not a problem, but the loss of infinity focus is a problem sadly.

 

Charlie

[menos I M6]

Charlie, I see two options for your issue, both not involving your 180/2:

 

1) rent a S + 180 S lens and see how you like it (this is the longest native option on a S)

2) get your hands on a second hand S2 body + Mamiya 645 adapter and find a Mamiya 300/2.8 APO

If that 300 on the S should feel too tight for you, give also the 200/2.8 APO (optically not as fantastic, as the 300/2.8 APO) a try.

 

As nice and special as the 180/2 is, especially the 300/2.8 APO is no slouch, easily up there with the best of the best super telephotos.

If you are used to handhold the 180/2 or find it comfortable on a monopod, the 300/2.8 APO will be no different. This lens on a S is the only super telephoto, I feel confident to be usable for motorsports on the S2 (I didn't try a Pentax 67 400/4 yet but am searching hard for a deal on one).

 

Additionally the 300 APO takes the 2x Mamiya TC very well, providing some serious reach to the S.

[John McMaster]

My Mamiya 645/S adapter finally arrived this week, 300mm f2.8 APO and 50mm shift lenses have been sitting on the shelf for a couple of months waiting ;-)

 

john

[menos I M6]

I would be interested, how that 50 shift turns out.

[John McMaster]

From what I have read, needs to be stopped down to f11 for best results...

 

john

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[albireo_double]

The images from the S2 will definitely be better than those from the M240, if you respect the increased requirements on technique that the higher resolution demands. However, you will forever be debating with yourself as to whether to take the M on a trip/assignment (compact, lightweight, can bring more lenses, incl. very wides) or a an S2 (carrying more than 2 lenses will break your back; you probably will not have very wide lenses at your disposal). I own both systems and from experience can advise that you really think through scenarios where you will want to use each system and what it means in terms of other accessories you bring along and their size/weight (tripod for the S2? hand grip? filters? extra batteries?). The S2 is very robust and reliable but when on a major trip, I wouldn't go without a spare camera. Then size and weight really start to go up. I am in the planning stage of a two week Africa trip involving 6 days of mountain trekking plus a safari and some driving around and I am ticking off items on the list and weighing stuff on a kitchen scale to decide what I can bring along, how much I can carry on my back, fit in the cabin luggage, what the maximum weight is I can ask a porter to carry etc. This all because I want to bring the S2 along, with a Pentax K3 for long lens duty and as a back up. Plus all other stuff like sat/cell phones with chargers, binoculars, GPS, first aid kit....the list goes on and on. It would be easier of course to bring the Pentax (or even an M43 camera with a long lens), and an M with 2-3 lenses. You've been warned.

Other than that, the one thing that really is a big plus with the S2 is the accuracy of the AF system. OK, it is not fast, predictive or what not but the single focusing point is very accurate and there is no focus shift or need for micro focus adjustment with any of the native lenses. I can't stress this enough how important this is in a 37MP resolution camera. It is no machine gun but a sniper's rifle. Final thought - in my view, it is not worth it using the camera with non-AF lenses, via adapters that don't provide automatic diaphragm and exif data read-outs. Way too much hassle and you give up the super accurate AF. On the other hand, the fully integrated Hasselblad H and Contax 645 adapters provide full automation (AF, diaphragm) and full exif info and are the way to go if you wish to save some money or use some focal lengths that don't exist natively in the S system.