S a little disappointing

[spoons]

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I have had the S for all of this year and think it is both beautiful to look at and to hold. It is a work of art and in some ways I am proud to own it. I have used it pretty much everyday all over the World in many environments and the pictures are stunning.

 

However, if I were to go back knowing what I know now, I wouldn't buy it.

 

I know it's not a 35mm DSLR but one can't help drawing comparisons and I have to say that the 'look' I achieved through all those trouble free years with my old camera was amazing and I doubt I'll ever get the same feeling about the S. There is just something about it.

 

I find in particular two features unacceptable and now, a deal breaker for me. Not being able to write to two cards using one as a backup, uncorrectable by firmware and when having to reset the camera at least once a day having to remove the S from the tripod, taking off the battery grip to remove the body battery, always of course during some multi composite shot.

 

The support I have had from Leica in London hasn't really been that forthcoming, not now that I own the camera anyway and I have had very little help from Germany. The camera may well be perfect for fashion and beauty but it's not right for everything and I think that's the case here.

 

I haven't really been using the camera recently rather preferring my old Canon, which I am SO glad I didn't sell. I used it last week ( The S ) and was instantly irritated by the resetting issue and just by the slightly awkward way it performs. Leica in New York claim that it is just the "quirks" of using Leica. Well that's not really good enough is it ? Try telling a client that and why should I spend all that money on something with quirks.?

 

I am posting this so that anyone considering trading up or sideways be prepared to pause for a moment.

 

I have an M too and that is fine being a little awkward, for me anyway. It's my second M series, the other one going back as I just couldn't get on with it, now, with a little age and wisdom, I am a true convert. I have actually used it to supplement my Canon on some jobs to unexpected welcome from some clients…tiddily looking thing on top of that massive tripod

[wda]

The S should be a mature camera by now, so I am surprised that resetting, on a regular basis, has not been cured. From observations elsewhere, could it be a memory card issue?

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[spoons]

you would think that it had settled. It's the second body I've had and the second battery grip, both being returned separately due to malfunction inn the body and QC issues with the grip.

 

It's not cards as I often shoot tethered and I have had the latest firmware for a while. Leica Germany simply don't answer and the Tech advice just comes out of the sales brochures.

 

If it were any other premium brand something would have been done but I guess this is just part of the Leica charm.

 

I'm not actually being too passive and Leica London will be getting a very stern visit on Monday.

[Dougg]

I would agree that frequent resetting is unacceptable; there's clearly something wrong when your "computer" regularly crashes. A stern discussion with Leica seems appropriate, as this cannot be just a Leica "quirk" that every user must accept as normal.

 

Mine is an S2, and in the several years of use it has never needed a reset. As I recall I had that happen once with an M8 longer ago.

 

Hope you get that sorted.

[hamey]

Personally Spoons, I don't have much sympathies for you, I can never understand why anybody wants to Spend a lot of money on a Leica digital camera, especially on the S (studio) system.

 

I love using my Leica Film Cameras, but thats it, as for my digital use I am now a convert to Canon and I simply love it, the more I use the Canon 70D the more I want to use it plus having the ability to use my R lenses and the awasome Canon AF and IS lenses is terrific.

 

Personally I think you made the right decision to hold onto your Canon DSLR.

 

Good luck on Monday.

 

Ken.

[spoons]

Hamay, believe me, I could do with not spending that sort of money but I was getting pressure from clients to deliver bigger and better files than my IDS 3 could deliver. I travel a lot and rental isn't really feasible, so the S fitted the bill at the time.

 

CGI will make bigger files redundant before the S has proven itself for me, so it's even more gauling.

[earleygallery]

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Not good enough. However much we like Leica the S is meant to be a pro system. If Leica are truly serious about this sector then they simply have to get the product right, and just as important, they have to provide a professional back up service.

[wda]

...The support I have had from Leica in London hasn't really been that forthcoming, not now that I own the camera anyway and I have had very little help from Germany. ...

If you haven't already done so, might I suggest you make an appointment to see Tania Payne who is manager of product support in London. If that does not work, see David Bell personally. I met both recently in London and they seemed reasonable and competent people in whose interest it is to help you solve your problem.

[james.liam]

I have noticed more S lenses on resale lately. I wonder if these are some of the reasons why.

 

Spoons, if larger files were what you needed, a Nikon D800E could have provided you with that, perhaps using Leitaxed R lenses or Zeiss for your work MF permitting, a set of either would have cost less than the S body alone.

 

I'm with 'hamey' on this, and (not) spending the money for digital Leica. Implementing and supporting digital continues to be an inexplicable Leica lapse despite the lofty prices and many years since the M8 intro. Either they don't 'get it' or the formats they are wed to don't lend themselves easily to the rapidly changing tech landscapes. Haven't decided yet.

[stephan_w]

I use the S2 now from the beginning and never had ANY problem (beside waiting about two years for the conversion of the 120 CS). It is simply the best professional workhorse and there isn't any camera out there who offers this combination of versatility and quality. The so praised D800E (which I also use frenquentyl) is handicapped by the poor lens-line up (which has changed since Sigma offer a decent 35 mm lens for this camea) and unprecise AF and a poor viewfinder.

 

This said, I'm waiting for some more people selling their S2 cheap in the hope to be able to afford a second body next year.

[peterv]

I agree with Stephan that the S/S2 is a nice professional workhorse. The 800E is also nice, but in different league with sensor size and available glass. Having said that I don't think that Solms should let Leica in New York get away with this claim that Spoons camera's problem is just the "quirks" of using Leica. They should take fast and decisive action to get this sorted out immediately. Having to take out the battery every day for a reset is unacceptable for an S/S2.

 

Spoons, please let us know how this gets solved in a way that is satisfactory to you and all your fellow S-owners.

[Sawboneslf]

I have had a completely different experience. I do own the Leica S and Nikon D800e. The D800E has less detail in the mid tones and tends to be very contrasty compared to the S. Exposure bracketing is difficult with the D800 and requires entering a complicated menu system. The auto and manual focus for LANDSCAPE is much more accurate on the S. I have had no issues with battery life. I use the Nikon for specialized situations such as sports, long telephoto, fisheye, and astophotography. The Leica S is far superior for landscape and studio work.

Finally, I just returned from Iceland and I had noted some condensation on my LCD screens. Leica sent me a brand new loaner S within 48 hours. The postage and insurance was prepaid by Leica. Ben Ross, the western S rep, was on the phone with me directly as soon as he heard that I had a problem. I have owned Nikons for 30 years and I have never had service even close to this.

I have no dog in this fight since I own both systems. JMHO

[albireo_double]

I have never needed to reset my S2 either. I had a sensor issue at the beginning (vertical red strip) but that got fixed - sensor replaced - within one week of bringing my camera back to the dealer; that included shipping. Having been through the "Canon with Leica R via an adapter experience", I would not go that way today, with Canon or Nikon. I would rather just use the Canons or Nikons with their dedicated modern AF lenses and accept that sometimes they may not extract the last once of resolution from the sensor.

Of course, Nikon D800 can produce the resolution but (a) using it with manually focused legacy lenses (e.g. Leica R) is difficult - due to the Nikon's narrow dim viewfinder and a screen that is not optimised for manual focusing; you don't even have automatic aperture with the R glass!, ( while there are good new AF lenses in the Nikon line-up, the consistency of performance across the range (and AF accuracy) is nowhere near to what it is in the S system. Interestingly enough, the other forum had a lively discussion recently about converting the Leica R 19 mm lens to fit a Nikon body, this procedure involving filing off a part of the Leica lens, to clear the mirror on the Nikon! I went through this nerve-wrecking procedure myself 3 years ago, with that same lens, for a Canon, and I think it is somewhat ridiculous. After this experience, I eventually decided that I wanted a camera system where all lenses are stellar, where I get a big bright viewfinder, super-accurate autofocus (no need for micro-adjustments with any single lens), automatic aperture with all lenses. Now I can even use Hasselblad H and Contax 645 lenses, with full autofocus, via adapters, and of course CS or Hasselblad H lenses with leaf shutter for fast flash sync if I need to. The bonus for me is that the images tend to come out of the S2 beautifully, often with minimum post-processing necessary. I believe that people who write that a D800 is equivalent to an S/S2 have never used both systems. I am sorry to hear that the OP had problems with his S and pleased to hear that he enjoys using his Canon, but the S2 remains the most capable and impressive camera system that I have ever used.

[Constable]

I can also confirm that I have never had an issue with resets on the S. I do not use the grip on a regular basis as the added bulk and weight negate the benefits of the S system. However, I have noted that the electronic connection is really non-robust and I wonder if the OPs problems may be grip-related.

 

I agree 100% about the dual card issue.Not a deal-breaker, but very, very, very annoying. For me the issue is not that I want to write to both cards simultaneously, but that I want to be able to chose which is the primary card. Please do not reply with the (i) take the card you do not want out of the camera and 8ii) take a card reader responses. I want two cards to have a back-up but I want to chose which to write to. If I am travelling with my MacBook Air I simply want to use images directly from the SD card and not take a CF reader with me (one more cable, one more thing to leave behind). The choice of slot could be fixed with a firmware update if there were any demand ... I appear to be alone in wanting this.

 

Otherwise, I am very happy. The quality is subjectively and objectively better than my previous D800E. For telephoto I have transition to Canon and am very happy with a 1DX with the series II long glass.

 

The only thing that I think Leica could improve on is to develop some better lighting options. There is still no decent ring flash system for macro that does not require custom solutions.

 

Ed

[stephan_w]

I want two cards to have a back-up but I want to chose which to write to. If I am travelling with my MacBook Air I simply want to use images directly from the SD card and not take a CF reader with me (one more cable, one more thing to leave behind). The choice of slot could be fixed with a firmware update if there were any demand ... I appear to be alone in wanting this.

 

never thought of this but it is indeed an excellent idea, that I support fully!

[mwilliamsphotography]

It is always difficult to reconcile different user experiences with any camera system.

 

I learned that with my Hasselblad H system, where I had little to no issues in using a string of 9 different cameras from the H2D/22 years ago, to the last one, a H4D/60, prior to semi-retiring. In contrast, I've read about a few other H user experiences which were fraught with unresolved issues.

 

My good S2 experiences, or those of many others here, make the OP's frustration a perplexing subject to respond to.

 

Professionally, I use 3 different type systems depending on the task. Canon and Nikon are no paragon of virtue as implied by some. We tend to forget their transgressions in our rush to laud them in comparison to something else.

 

How angry would we be if the Mirror fell out of "something else" like the Canon 5D, or if it couldn't focus accurately because of the mirror box issue of a Pro spec Canon which Canon vehemently denied until pressured to fix it?

 

Or my own nerve racking experiences with Nikon, where one lit up like Robbie the Robot and ate the CF card images during a wedding shoot ... or a new Nikon 24-70 zoom busting in half (drunk wedding guest accident), and being told there are no parts for month after month after month until my wedding season was over ... or those D800s with right side focus issues, and new lenses so out of spec even micro adjust couldn't fix it ... I could go on and on, but you get the point.

 

4 years ago, I switched to Sony ... I have no idea what their service is like because I've never had to use it. Others may have nightmare anecdotal experiences compared to mine ... of that I have no doubt ... just as long as I don't have them ... LOL!

 

While I have never had to "reboot", my near 4 year S2P trek has not been uneventful. How Leica responded to each one made all the difference.

 

> Early model S2 cracked sensor; Camera replaced overnight with no questions asked.

 

> Replacement camera shutter button becomes intermittent in cold weather; Leica apologizes, sends loaner for AM delivery, receives mine, replaces camera.

 

> New H to S adapter is funky with a few of my H series lenses; Leica replaces it no questions asked.

 

> Now out of warranty camera develops a dead pixel red line; Inform Leica USA; Leica Germany requests a RAW file, writes a new base firmware sensor re-map overnight which solves it. 2 nights total from discovery to solution.

 

> Recently upgraded all 4 of my S lenses to CS versions ... after a few months the CS120 exhibits exposure issues; inform Leica USA last week, they e-mail UPS label, upon receipt of lens Leica confirms issue, new CS120 being shipped to me this week.

 

No one, not Canon, Nikon, Mamiya, or Hasselblad has ever been this responsive. I give much of the credit to Kelsey Fain, Leica S System Product Specialist USA ... always cordial, knowledgable, and swift to act and get me back to shooting. Many thanks!

 

 

As to those who ask "Why Leica Digital?" ... first off, that is a "Why digital?" question. Because we live in a NOW professional world, not a day from now world like with film. Why Leica? It is ALWAYS the same answer ... the lenses. If some can't see the difference between a D800 and AF Nikon lenses verses Leica S2 with AF S/CS lenses, all I can say is lucky you ... you can satisfy your eye for a lot less money. Besides it is a moot question for me, I NEED AF leaf shutter lenses anyway.

 

- Marc

 

BTW, I believe the back-up card issue is an issue because the S only writes jpgs to the SD card. For a true back up it should be able to write RAW to both ... even if it has to be the lossless compressed RAW for transfer speed. Then it wouldn't matter what card was the primary because they are both the same. SD cards have gotten better since the S was introduced ... firmware fix please!

Edited October 7, 2013 by fotografz

[vintola]

I bought a new S about two weeks ago and everything has worked fine. I have taken now about 500 photos. The camera has the latest firmware 2.3.0.0.

 

Except this morning the camera locked, nothing worked. The red light in the back was on constantly, didn't flash as usually. Fortunately I read yesterday evening spoons' thread about resetting and thanks to this I knew to take the battery out and back in. After that everything was ok. So far.

 

I wonder why the camera this expensive has this kind of problem. Let's hope Leica can fix it in the following firmware. - vintola -

[spoons]

The dual card thing drives me crazy. Leica first claimed that it wasn't possible then backed down when I pointed out that Canon have this facility then they said that it was what photographers asked for. Even if it was, there should be an option to choose as there is with all the other card writing options.

 

This and the battery are SO annoying, it's almost enough for me to give up the system. Neither are correctable via firmware.

 

I will report back with my findings.

[stephan_w]

well consider me when you resell your camera

 

This said, maybe it is also a card problem, or something like that

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[spoons]

Do you want to buy a camera that clearly doesn't work correctly ? I'm sitting here with it on my desk and it is beautiful. I'm sure I'll come around to it once it's sorted out.

 

It isn't a card problem as I shoot mostly tethered.