More S2 tests and Phase One comparisons

[tashley]

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I have run a series of tests today - as is so often the case, one man's methodology is another man's folly and I will no doubt imminently learn but fearlessly I set off first with some ISO comparisons, which so far confirm my suspicions that my S2 has perfectly good lower ISO performance and in fact beats my P45+ comfortably.

 

All shots process to same defaults in C1 other than setting zero sharpening and NR universally.

 

First, here's the scene:

 

[tashley]

Now some Phase and S2 shots, all at F5.6 and with very similar absolute exposures: these are 100% crops.

 

P45+ at ISO 80

 

 

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P45+ at ISO 100

 

 

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S2 at ISO 160

 

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[tashley]

P45+ at ISO 200

 

 

 

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S2 at ISO 320

 

[tashley]

P45+ at ISO 400

 

 

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S2 at ISO 640

 

 

 

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P45+ at ISO 800

 

 

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S2 at ISO 1250

 

[markowich]

tim, in my view the S2 shows unacceptable noise levels in dark areas at base iso, particularly in your test shots---))). do you see the color specles in blackish image zones? your tests confirm mine perfectly. your conlusion is 'better than P45'. that maybe, i can't do the comparism. all i know is that my HD II 50 and my P65 are MUCH better at base iso. P45 is not state of the art anymore in MF. and neither will the S2 be.

i think our results agree, just our conlusions do not.

peter

[Guest guy_mancuso]

The P45+ is certainly not the the high ISO noise back by a country mile . It really is limited to 400 max and even than that is a stretch. P30,P40 and P65 are the better High ISO backs and having owned the P30+ and now the P40+ that new award goes to the P40+ and P65+ backs. I think these are maybe the best high ISO backs on the market and that is the whole MF market. I can't comment to much on the new Hassy 50 though since I don't know that back well enough. Again I have the raws loaded on the S2 and P40+ through the whole ISO series that can be downloaded and analyzed . The S2 is not the leader here on high ISO it is what I expected though. But I think it could get better IMHO with some more tweaking. Thinks to watch for is luminance and color and at what levels they are being set at , makes a really big difference and takes some balance between getting smearing and acceptable results with these slider controls.

[markowich]

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tim, if i remember correctly (i had a P45 years ago) iso 100 is base. 80 is pull and 200 iso is already BAD (in my diction). probably you have to compare base-base.

after all, the leica S2 reaches the base-iso noise levels of 3 year old technology. some achievement. the modern backs of phase and hassy are buttery smooth on base iso, in all shades of grey.i find the S2 performance unacceptable for what it costs, peter

[andym911]

sorry to ask as the S2 is surely not for me but is the WB in the shot above now way off?

 

looks too blue to me to be real..

 

apologize in advance if I am way off:)

 

andy

[tashley]

The P45+ is certainly not the the high ISO noise back by a country mile . It really is limited to 400 max and even than that is a stretch.

 

I totally agree, the P45+ has some useful tricks up its sleeve like very long exposures and a very rudimentary tethered live view that can be useful for focus on still life and macro shots but it's higher ISO performance sucks and expectations have come along some ways since it was launched.

 

P30,P40 and P65 are the better High ISO backs and having owned the P30+ and now the P40+ that new award goes to the P40+ and P65+ backs. I think these are maybe the best high ISO backs on the market and that is the whole MF market. I can't comment to much on the new Hassy 50 though since I don't know that back well enough. Again I have the raws loaded on the S2 and P40+ through the whole ISO series that can be downloaded and analyzed . The S2 is not the leader here on high ISO it is what I expected though. But I think it could get better IMHO with some more tweaking. Thinks to watch for is luminance and color and at what levels they are being set at , makes a really big difference and takes some balance between getting smearing and acceptable results with these slider controls.

 

I can't compare the S2 to either of the Dalsa sensor backs since I don't have one but Michael R felt that up to 400/320 and with beta FW, the S2 was comparable to the P40. I would be very interested to hear if you and or Jack agree with that? I don't think anyone is going to try to argue that the S2 will beat the Dalsa's above 400 though as you say with some tweaks it should improve.

 

 

Best

 

Tim

[tashley]

sorry to ask as the S2 is surely not for me but is the WB in the shot above now way off?

 

looks too blue to me to be real..

 

apologize in advance if I am way off:)

 

andy

 

Andy, I didn't bother to shoot a whi bal target today and the colour temperature of the light was odd. The other problem is that if you give an S2 file the same temp and tint as a P45+ file in C1, they will look totally different, go figure, but since colour accurate colour profiles for the S2 don't exist yet I regard it as no biggie. I balanced the files to look ballpark like each other. It shouldn't really affect this test too much. In any event in a shot like that there are in truth two different WB's at least within one file - daylight and shade...

[tashley]

tim, in my view the S2 shows unacceptable noise levels in dark areas at base iso, particularly in your test shots---))). do you see the color specles in blackish image zones? your tests confirm mine perfectly. your conlusion is 'better than P45'. that maybe, i can't do the comparism. all i know is that my HD II 50 and my P65 are MUCH better at base iso. P45 is not state of the art anymore in MF. and neither will the S2 be.

i think our results agree, just our conlusions do not.

peter

 

Peter, for my purposes and to my eye and taste, the S2 is doing well enough. My main output is to exhibition prints which range in size from 5 x 7 to, for one current project, over six feet tall. I am totally satisfied that at ISO 160 and probably 320, S2 noise levels will suit my needs, tastes and eventually workflow when there are proper profiles available. As MR and many, many other people have pointed out, 100% JPEGs in SRGB tell a limited story. It happens to be the only thing we can share here, but I do know from experience that I can get the prints size I want at a quality that pleases me in the P45+ at up to ISO200 so if the S2 can beat it, which I think it can, then that side of the equation is closed for me and I start to think about lens quality and, most importantly, form factor and ergonomics and haptics.

 

Your needs are obviously very different - though I am not sure what they are. I don't know whether you like to print very large, or expect to be able to crop a lot, whatever... but I am quite sure that your decision to return the beast is the right decision for you, and for whatever those needs are!

 

 

Best

 

Tim

[markowich]

Peter, for my purposes and to my eye and taste, the S2 is doing well enough. My main output is to exhibition prints which range in size from 5 x 7 to, for one current project, over six feet tall. I am totally satisfied that at ISO 160 and probably 320, S2 noise levels will suit my needs, tastes and eventually workflow when there are proper profiles available. As MR and many, many other people have pointed out, 100% JPEGs in SRGB tell a limited story. It happens to be the only thing we can share here, but I do know from experience that I can get the prints size I want at a quality that pleases me in the P45+ at up to ISO200 so if the S2 can beat it, which I think it can, then that side of the equation is closed for me and I start to think about lens quality and, most importantly, form factor and ergonomics and haptics.

 

Your needs are obviously very different - though I am not sure what they are. I don't know whether you like to print very large, or expect to be able to crop a lot, whatever... but I am quite sure that your decision to return the beast is the right decision for you, and for whatever those needs are!

 

 

Best

 

Tim

 

tim, i am happy you like the S2 since- as i said before i'd like leica to survive for the M system's sake. as far as my needs are concerned: someone i know very well (---))) needs to print very large. i print around 1meter max and the D3x is the best allround camera for me, although i have more fun with the M9. but i do have a scientific interest in sensor performance optimisation, image processing and analysis.

btw, the bokeh of the mamiya (or phase lens) you were using for the tests looks very pleasant. better than the leica lens. makes me worry, too.

peter

[Guest guy_mancuso]

I totally agree, the P45+ has some useful tricks up its sleeve like very long exposures and a very rudimentary tethered live view that can be useful for focus on still life and macro shots but it's higher ISO performance sucks and expectations have come along some ways since it was launched.

 

 

 

I can't compare the S2 to either of the Dalsa sensor backs since I don't have one but Michael R felt that up to 400/320 and with beta FW, the S2 was comparable to the P40. I would be very interested to hear if you and or Jack agree with that? I don't think anyone is going to try to argue that the S2 will beat the Dalsa's above 400 though as you say with some tweaks it should improve.

 

 

Best

 

Tim

 

 

ISO 320 is pretty good on the S2 and 640 I think it could get better with some tweaking. What we probably should see here is how is the Hassy Kodak 50 on ISO levels since the S2 and the Hassy 50 share the same basic sensor. Now what Peter is seeing in the shadows maybe more attributed to DR which Jack and I felt the S2 was about 1/3 to 1/2 less DR than the P40+. Now that is a tough test to do and we did go by more clipping in the shadows and highlight area's and our rough guess and working with the files. From scientific level that maybe different. Our test are more real world style than let's say machine done.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Andy, I didn't bother to shoot a whi bal target today and the colour temperature of the light was odd. The other problem is that if you give an S2 file the same temp and tint as a P45+ file in C1, they will look totally different, go figure, but since colour accurate colour profiles for the S2 don't exist yet I regard it as no biggie. I balanced the files to look ballpark like each other. It shouldn't really affect this test too much. In any event in a shot like that there are in truth two different WB's at least within one file - daylight and shade...

 

It will have some effect on noise though without WB

[tgm]

tim, i am happy you like the S2 since- as i said before i'd like leica to survive for the M system's sake. as far as my needs are concerned: someone i know very well (---))) needs to print very large. i print around 1meter max and the D3x is the best allround camera for me, although i have more fun with the M9. but i do have a scientific interest in sensor performance optimisation, image processing and analysis.

btw, the bokeh of the mamiya (or phase lens) you were using for the tests looks very pleasant. better than the leica lens. makes me worry, too.

peter

 

Peter,

 

I am sorry, but what do you see? The bokeh is identical!

 

This is a strange thread, you buy a camera for 20000 euro just because you are interested in sensor technology? And than you are disappointed about the noise at base level which is, I would say, almost invisible?

 

What is your intention?

 

Thomas

 

 

p.s. If you would have complained about noise at 1250, that would make more sense

Edited January 2, 2010 by tgm

[Bo_Lorentzen]

Tim,

 

Thank you for posting these, I have not really paid attention to MF backs for quite a while and can only say the noise you show at 1200 looks a lot like lower ISO shots 8-10 years ago so clearly things have moved forward. That is good.

 

Im a little surprised over the amount of noise at in all of these systems, though in my mind this is really of no consequence as a large print is where it is at anyway. I don't think 100% pixel on screen is the destination of very many S2 files.

 

Maybe the important ingredient here is the form factor and handling. The ability to stuff the camera and a 70mm on top of my backpack, vs the PhaseOne in the same scenario. For me personally, the weather proofing of the lenses and camera make up more than the price difference, the fact that Leica is amusingly confident in their dishwasher proof lenses.

 

However for somebody shooting maybe tethered in studio or on location with no fear of ocean splash - I suspect that more inexpensive cameras may compete. Agree the file will get nicer as the firmware become more refined, but this is also a case of "the whole is more than the parts" this package is entirely unique for what it does in this form-factor.

 

.

[telewatt]

Peter,

 

I am sorry, but what do you see? The bokeh is identical!

 

This is a strange thread, you buy a camera for 20000 euro just because you are interested in sensor technology? And than you are disappointed about the noise at base level which is, I would say, almost invisible?

 

What is your intention?

 

Thomas

 

 

p.s. If you would have complained about noise at 1250, that would make more sense

 

....this thread is realy strange..........

 

regards,

Jan

[tashley]

Tim,

 

Thank you for posting these, I have not really paid attention to MF backs for quite a while and can only say the noise you show at 1200 looks a lot like lower ISO shots 8-10 years ago so clearly things have moved forward. That is good.

 

Im a little surprised over the amount of noise at in all of these systems, though in my mind this is really of no consequence as a large print is where it is at anyway. I don't think 100% pixel on screen is the destination of very many S2 files.

 

Maybe the important ingredient here is the form factor and handling. The ability to stuff the camera and a 70mm on top of my backpack, vs the PhaseOne in the same scenario. For me personally, the weather proofing of the lenses and camera make up more than the price difference, the fact that Leica is amusingly confident in their dishwasher proof lenses.

 

However for somebody shooting maybe tethered in studio or on location with no fear of ocean splash - I suspect that more inexpensive cameras may compete. Agree the file will get nicer as the firmware become more refined, but this is also a case of "the whole is more than the parts" this package is entirely unique for what it does in this form-factor.

 

.

 

 

Thanks Bo - it sounds as if we have a similar approach.

 

I use the studio somewhat, but as little as I can. I have a great preference for ambient light and so as an absolute minimum I need useable 320, which for my purposes the S2 does offer and I'm fairly confident it will improve. In any event it is better than a P45+ at those sorts of ISOs and a P45+ is what I have been using for the past year and am looking to replace. The choice was either a P65+ or an S2 and though I am totally convinced by the opinions of others that the P65+ has superior file quality I am not sure it would make more than an angel on a pin's worth of difference for most of my output and it would stretch some of my glass past breaking point.

 

Which leaves us with the form factor, as you say. Today, shooting these (and some lens tests) I had to have both cameras with me and needed to switch ISO, exposure comp, camera mode (from A to M) and so on quite a lot, and I also had to shoot MUP with a self-timer. I found myself cursing the Phase body, constantly, and hardly noticing the S2. It isn't superior in every way but overall it really is, for me.

 

That's why I am continuing to run my tests. The form factor wins, for me and my style of shooting, by such a convincing margin that its almost cruel to start the race though of course for those needing a tech camera option or a wide range of lenses from the get-go, it's the S2 that's the non-starter.

 

So now I just need to bottom out some other issues...

 

Best

 

Tim

Edited January 3, 2010 by tashley