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SL vs SL vs SL


urs0polar

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Hi

 

I have wanted a Leica SL, so I picked up one from KEH, EX quality for $172. I found it was missing one of the bottom plate screws and the viewfinder is pretty yellow and you can see the glue or whatever separating around the edges. The shutter is the weakest of the 3; sounds like my M6 before I sent it in for an SLA to Sherry; at the 1-second setting it's not as forthright as the others (you can hear weak ticking after the shutter fires, and in general it sounds weaker than the other two). So I called KEH and of course I can send it back no problem (I have the return fedex label -- how awesome is KEH), but I haven't yet. Cosmetically, though, it is pretty much unscathed and looks to be cosmetically the best of the 3 by far.

 

Living in NYC, I stopped by Adorama and picked up another SL for $139. It's definitely used, has one name "Ralph Altman" professionally engraved and another "Lee 965 5832" engraved by a drunken dremel-wielder on the bottom plate. This camera is definitely seen a lot of use; slight dent in the metal of the prism that you can feel but not quite see, some brassing, especially around the eyelets for the strap, but nice bright viewfinder (made me go "so THIS is what Doug Herr was talking about"), but it's got a little bit of the slightly lighter cast glue separation or what have you along the very very top, but otherwise is nice. Compared to the 1st SL above, the viewfinder is very nice.

 

Maybe it's this Ralph Altman; who knows: Ralph Altman, 84 - Chicago Tribune

 

Anyhow, seeing that the Ralph Altman was engraved, I saw KEH had one more SL (all 3 of these are "SL version 2 with 3 position lever") of BGN grade for $89 so I bought it too. This one has visible usage dents along the prism, but it's not engraved and seems to work fine. The viewfinder is sliiightly more dusty (and my wife says it's slightly more "green", I can't tell), but NO separation at all that we can see, and it's quite bright like The Altman. The shutter sounds nice and strong, maybe a tad less so than the Altman.

 

So, obviously I have to decide which one(s) to keep.

 

Is it better to keep the one with the nice body that will need to be sent in for an SLA pretty much right away, and even then maybe the viewfinder will likely need to be resilvered, so all in all I might as well buy another R8 at that price? (R8 is my favorite aperture-priority SLR, that's for sure). I guess I could get the battery compartment fixed for 1.5v cells while I'm at it. The thing is though, I don't have the money for that right now, and if I did, maybe I would put it towards more R glass or something instead. But if someone has a really compelling argument I suppose I could be convinced.

 

Or, do I return the expensive yellow vf one, return the Adorama one like tomorrow (they only give you 7 days, not very long at all, bought it on the 13th), and keep the $89 one?

 

Or do I return the yellow vf one and keep both cheaper ones since it's about $200 all-in for both of them and then I have parts if one breaks or I can do stuff like put color in one and black and white in the other? Then of course I have the First World Problem of deciding which one to use ...

 

Walking around with the late Mr Altman's SL, I can see why everybody likes these things. it's literally amazing how well built they are, the viewfinder is great in all light, it's quick (because of no split prism), and it makes you want to wind it because it's so smooth.

 

Any help appreciated, you guys are great. If pictures would help I could post some.

 

(FWIW, my wife says to take back the "haunted" one, lol)

Edited by urs0polar
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I would send both back.

 

I've purchased a lot of vintage/old cameras over the years and pretty much all of them needed some work. That should be your assumption.

 

The SL is a great. I've used them for 4-5 years, and now have 3. Although replacements prisms are still available, the repairs are expensive ($400+), so I would look for one with a clear, bright viewfinder.

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I bought my SL in 1969. The light meter went non-linear and remained so after a service by E.Leitz 20 years ago. So it sat unused for years. It's been at a good - but slow - repairman for a year+ who said he would make it like new.

While waiting I also bought an SL body from KEH, and had DAG replace the CDS cell, as it's meter would also underexpose in dim light, and it has been great since. I see a bit of the yellowing you describe, so I hope when my old one gets back its meter will also be good again, as its viewfinder was still mint.

BTW, I bought a fair amount of gear from Altman's in Chicago, and went there in 1969 and marveled at the expensive ($681) new Noctilux 1.2. His camera store had 3 floors and escalators. I was told he just got tired of all the hassles and closed it down.

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I would send both back.

 

I've purchased a lot of vintage/old cameras over the years and pretty much all of them needed some work. That should be your assumption.

 

The SL is a great. I've used them for 4-5 years, and now have 3. Although replacements prisms are still available, the repairs are expensive ($400+), so I would look for one with a clear, bright viewfinder.

 

Hi Steve, when you say send both back, which two of the three are you talking about?

 

Yeah, I know that I will need to get them CLA'd eventually; it's just that I'd like to use it for a while first. Sherry and I are good friends already so I'll be sending whatever I keep her way eventually.

Edited by urs0polar
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I bought my SL in 1969. The light meter went non-linear and remained so after a service by E.Leitz 20 years ago. So it sat unused for years. It's been at a good - but slow - repairman for a year+ who said he would make it like new.

While waiting I also bought an SL body from KEH, and had DAG replace the CDS cell, as it's meter would also underexpose in dim light, and it has been great since. I see a bit of the yellowing you describe, so I hope when my old one gets back its meter will also be good again, as its viewfinder was still mint.

BTW, I bought a fair amount of gear from Altman's in Chicago, and went there in 1969 and marveled at the expensive ($681) new Noctilux 1.2. His camera store had 3 floors and escalators. I was told he just got tired of all the hassles and closed it down.

 

It's sounding like you guys like to have more than one SL -- I'm having a hard time sending two of them back, that's for sure. Maybe I should just keep two as they are pretty inexpensive.

 

I actually haven't tried the meters in any of them as I haven't ordered Wein cells yet. I've been using a lightmeter app on my iphone and a Sekonic 768 if i need a spot meter. Funny thing is that the iphone app ($2) is giving the same readings as the dome on the 768. Pretty impressive for the iphone.

 

Altman's sounded like a great place; I was born in '79, so never had the chance to check it out.

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Hi Steve, when you say send both back, which two of the three are you talking about?

 

Yeah, I know that I will need to get them CLA'd eventually; it's just that I'd like to use it for a while first. Sherry and I are good friends already so I'll be sending whatever I keep her way eventually.

 

I got lost with your post -- send all 3 back.

 

SLs are readily available on the internet auction sites, and they sell fairly inexpensively from people (as opposed to stores), because there is not the same type of demand for this great camera we see with Ms. To give an example, this spring I purchased, from ebay, a mint, in box w/ papers, late model black (black being rare), for something like $250 (US). That same camera in one of the stores would be 2x or 3x as much. It may take a bit of searching, but if you have to send a camera out for a CLA anyway, then that auction site is a good place for old cameras, And honestly, I've never had a good experience with the two stores you mentioned.

 

Lots of people repair the SLs, Essex, DAG, but this camera is one of Sherry Krauter's favorites (along with the M5; parenthetically, my two favorites too). She does good work.

 

Please be advised that resilvered prisms are not good as the original. They are a little darker, and that makes focusing microprisms more difficult. I had a new prism installed on one of my SLs -- very expensive -- but worth it.

Edited by SteveYork
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Most old/vintage cameras are a real hassle to bring back to prime condition. It takes time and money and maybe more then one trip to the repair shop. I know, I've done if from Canon to Zeiss, but the Leicaflex SL is one of those cameras where you'll be happy that you made the effort. And you'll also wonder why it doesn't have a stronger following within the Leica crowd.

 

In the last two years, I've probably put 200 rolls through the Leicaflex and only 50 through rangefinders. Actually, a Leicaflex SL and a rangefinder are a compelling combination, because the user experiences are so different.

 

But do plan on some repair work. You'll be lucky if you don't have to do something. If you go the dealer route, any repair work should be covered under warranty.

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Having had many SL and SL/SL2mot 'flexes', they are still what I consider to be as fine (nearly) an SLR design ever produced. The ergonomics are beyond intuitive.

 

The 'mold-etching' is the most common issue now with the non-collectors 'Flexes', I've replaced two prisms before and now, as has been pointed out, they are even more to replace. Then there is usually and should be performed, thorough internal CLA, if this is performed correctly, the cameras will keep on keeping on. Too, I'm not sure about the CDS metering cell availability. But if the shutter and additional mechanicals are fine, I've used mine before with hand-held meters to perfect satisfaction.

 

I had Don Goldberg modify an SLmot with a minor mirror 'trim' to allow latter R lenses to be used, and in addition, had him upgrade to the SL2's (and M5) more sensitive meter cell, I even had him put in a back-light for the finder display, all this was then topped off with the SL2's more knurled speed-dial...on a Black-chromed SLmot. I eventually sold it but I still wish I hadn't.

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Having had many SL and SL/SL2mot 'flexes', they are still what I consider to be as fine (nearly) an SLR design ever produced. The ergonomics are beyond intuitive.

 

The 'mold-etching' is the most common issue now with the non-collectors 'Flexes', I've replaced two prisms before and now, as has been pointed out, they are even more to replace. Then there is usually and should be performed, thorough internal CLA, if this is performed correctly, the cameras will keep on keeping on. Too, I'm not sure about the CDS metering cell availability. But if the shutter and additional mechanicals are fine, I've used mine before with hand-held meters to perfect satisfaction.

 

I had Don Goldberg modify an SLmot with a minor mirror 'trim' to allow latter R lenses to be used, and in addition, had him upgrade to the SL2's (and M5) more sensitive meter cell, I even had him put in a back-light for the finder display, all this was then topped off with the SL2's more knurled speed-dial...on a Black-chromed SLmot. I eventually sold it but I still wish I hadn't.

 

The SL2 is somewhat preferable to the SL for several reasons. Most of them are newer and the shutter speed dial is sturdier. The meter is 3 stops more sensitive. and the eyepiece takes correction lenses.

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The SL2 is somewhat preferable to the SL for several reasons. Most of them are newer and the shutter speed dial is sturdier. The meter is 3 stops more sensitive. and the eyepiece takes correction lenses.

 

All the SL2's are newer as they were the follow-up to the SL. However, after extensively using both, I found (for myself anyway) that the SLmot seemed a bit more solid than my SL2mot. The SL2 series had a new chassis and form/shape, it was an improved camera in various ways, some of which you mentioned, the meter sensitivity was a big improvement as was the finder display.

 

Again, I found my SLmot customized version (my own ala Carte) was my favorite of the 'mot versions I've owned. Too, the all the 'flexes could/can take a tremendous amount of abuse and there still is nothing quite like the visual appeal of the finder, and I really enjoyed the nearly complete variable settings of the series shutters. Just great, great, solid and tremendously useable cameras.

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The SL2 is somewhat preferable to the SL for several reasons. Most of them are newer and the shutter speed dial is sturdier. The meter is 3 stops more sensitive. and the eyepiece takes correction lenses.

 

My take is that most prefer the SL over the SL2, although, as you note, the SL2 has some technical advantages (e.g., more sensitive meter). Maybe that's just because the SL2 is so much more affordable.

 

When I got into Leicaflex's, I aimed for the SL2 after reading spec sheets, and ended up with an SL and SL2 that I used side by side for a trip. I ended up keeping the SL because it was such a different experience from a rangefinder (and the SL2 found a new home).

 

What concerns me about the SL2 is stories of design defect resulting in an inaccurate top shutter speed or two (or three). I've spoke to the notable repair people, and received different explanations as to cause, but they acknowledge the problem. I didn't see a problem in the SL2 I used for a bit, but I wasn't really using the top shutter speeds.

 

The repair people call the SL "the M3" of Leica SLRs. I don't know why, but that can't be a bad thing.

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My take is that most prefer the SL over the SL2, although, as you note, the SL2 has some technical advantages (e.g., more sensitive meter). Maybe that's just because the SL2 is so much more affordable.

 

When I got into Leicaflex's, I aimed for the SL2 after reading spec sheets, and ended up with an SL and SL2 that I used side by side for a trip. I ended up keeping the SL because it was such a different experience from a rangefinder (and the SL2 found a new home).

 

What concerns me about the SL2 is stories of design defect resulting in an inaccurate top shutter speed or two (or three). I've spoke to the notable repair people, and received different explanations as to cause, but they acknowledge the problem. I didn't see a problem in the SL2 I used for a bit, but I wasn't really using the top shutter speeds.

 

The repair people call the SL "the M3" of Leica SLRs. I don't know why, but that can't be a bad thing.

 

Steve, all the prices I see right now point to the SL ($80-$180) being *less* expensive than the SL2 ($250+). I guess that's a good thing because I think I like it better anyhow.

 

I took James' advice and kept the cheapest one, which has a bit of a bent shutter dial (just cosmetic damage) and a dinged prism housing. It has no sign of mold in the finder/prism at all, so I figured it is better than the other two anyhow. I would rather have Sherry fix the dial during a CLA then pay $400 for a darker resilvered finder.

 

Thanks for all the advice everyone!

Edited by urs0polar
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I took James' advice and kept the cheapest one, which has a bit of a bent shutter dial (just cosmetic damage) and a dinged prism housing. It has no sign of mold in the finder/prism at all, so I figured it is better than the other two anyhow. I would rather have Sherry fix the dial during a CLA then pay $400 for a darker resilvered finder.

 

Good choice. If the dinged prism housing bothers you I suspect either Sherry or Don Goldberg has a pretty one for a lot le$$ than a new prism. The bent shutter speed dial is an easy fix as long as one of the four tabs on the inner shutter speed dial keyed into the shutter speed shaft isn't broken off. Replacing the inner shutter speed dial is a very simple repair but you don't want a broken tab to get lodged in the shutter timing mechanism. Black inner shutter speed dials may be hard to come by but they're plentiful in chrome.

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Good choice. If the dinged prism housing bothers you I suspect either Sherry or Don Goldberg has a pretty one for a lot le$$ than a new prism. The bent shutter speed dial is an easy fix as long as one of the four tabs on the inner shutter speed dial keyed into the shutter speed shaft isn't broken off. Replacing the inner shutter speed dial is a very simple repair but you don't want a broken tab to get lodged in the shutter timing mechanism. Black inner shutter speed dials may be hard to come by but they're plentiful in chrome.

 

Thanks Doug,

 

I took off the set screws today, removed the dial (only the knurled piece with the speeds engraved) and saw that the flange thing itself that the set screws from the knurled piece connect to is bent. But, all speeds sound good, and the dial rotates fully from B to 2000 evenly and smoothly, and the clicks inside feel just like the other, non-bent SLs. The winder also goes through its full travel and doesn't have a problem, winds just as smooth as the others, and stays at the 3 detented positions, etc. It doesn't feel like anything is broken in there, but you're right I should have it CLA'd and fixed sometime soon. I have a 35/2R lens that doesn't quite focus at infinity that I have to send to Sherry anyhow. Very low on camera funds right now so it'll go to her early next year probably.

 

It's a chrome SL so hopefully not a big deal (I like the chrome SL; all the other Leicas I have are black because black is cheaper for M6 and R8. Funny how that works).

 

All in all I feel like I got a good deal at $89, and I can put the camera in my bag and take to work every day, etc and it's already dinged so I don't have to overly baby it.

 

What a great camera body these things are, the craftsmanship is unbelievable.

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It sounds like you kept the best 'user'. For that money its a bargain. If you really like the camera you can always keep your eye out for a mint one, but I bet you'll prefer using the battered one!

 

Thanks James, Yeah that's exactly my thought. For now, I'm putting some Portra 400 in it and getting ready for the weekend.

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