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Why did Leica drop their R-clients so unceremoniously?


Posto 6

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I am quite aware the subject is a little politically incorrect for this forum, but I feel that it is an issue that has to be asked and satisfactorily addressed. Until 2008, Leica's main offerings were centered on the R-range- best, newest and widest range of lenses, first 35mm with digital compatibility, most frequently updated cameras. There were no indications whatsoever (in fact pretty much the opposite- there were promises of an R10 and other on the face of it misleading forms of encouragement) that investments in this range would be relegated to the corporate scrapheap over the coming year.

 

Fine, we will not cry over spilled milk. Nevertheless, in my mind at least, Leica's credibility has evidently been severely dented, irrespective of the rather lame and indirect reasons proffered by Solms. Why should anyone, especially a hetefofore loyal R-customer, ever contemplate investing in something like the S-series- whose long-term viability is far from assured, and which could be jettisoned at the next sign of corporate difficulties?

 

The M9, whose demand from the market is in no small part from seekers of "luxury brand cachet" and who are in no way serious photographers, risks eventually losing it's current head of steam. Remember please- the M3 sold very well initially, and by the early 1960's had been overtaken by more fashionable equipment- with plummeting sales for the M-series generally, almost leading to the M-series being given the chop in the 1970's.

 

Is it conceivable that the lack of decisive communications on with respect to the R-series reflects an indecision similar to the "Midland moment" so beloved by Xmas (Noel)? Although most posters have an opinion, it would be rather nice to have some clarity, without doublespeak, on this issue from Leica themselves for once. No reading of tea-leaves by apologists- just a direct and honest appraisal of the situation.

Edited by Posto 6
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This really is a bit of old news now, to be honest and has been discussed to death on the forum for several years. If you do a search on here for "R10", you will find dozens of threads and hundreds of posts.

 

Firstly, Leica have made it perfectly clear why they dropped the R range.

 

Secondly, they would never make a statement here about it.

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A simple and legitimate reason: to cut their losses. Over the years, even in the Leicaflex days, the R system was a continuous financial drain on the company and it never generated a profit. The R&D of the R8 and R9 was never recovered in sales. It is a miracle they kept it up for so long. Read the first part of Erwin Puts' new book - it is very clear, especially on the role of the various CEOs since say 1990.

Edited by jaapv
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While I really do love Leica products as much as anyone else on the Forum, it should be remembered that ours is also a commercial relationship- we buyers are the ones who keep the the production process going at Solms and Vila Nova de Famalicão. It would be unwise to take our long-term patronage too much for granted by not clearly and accurately keeping us abreast of developments and failing to take our interests into consideration as well. Like Leica shareholders and workers, we are also major stakeholders in the Leica Camera family.

Edited by Posto 6
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Read the first part of Erwin Puts' new book - it is very clear, especially on the role of the various CEOs since say 1990.

Jaapv, would you by any chance have details of this book please?

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This is a boring topic that has been ground into the ground on the forum, Posto.

 

You say you're part of a commercial exchange with Leica. Unfortunately, Leica lost money on every R body and lens they ever sold you. That's not a viable relationship.

 

I'm a great lover of the R system, but at some point, Leica had to cut their losses. Continuing to produce out-of-date but beautiful equipment for the few of us who recognize its value is unfortunately not a way to stay in business.

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Hi

 

When your household budget does not balance you stop buying sugar, ... if your planning is not good enough you only discover late in the day when the pocket is empty.

 

And I dont see why anyone thinks it is outlandish to doubt the veracity of large companies spiels. It is like children and Father Xmas...

 

Leitz sold M3 and M2 against Canon and Nikons best until '65, (although a M2 was more expensive then e.g. a Canon P by a margin, and the Canon is/was a better camera) they failed to repeat their rangefinder sales when they tried SLR. Nikon and Canon had upped their game. Zeiss did not do any better with the Contarex from '58 on.

 

With a crystal ball one can see they should not have tried SLR, but hindsight is wonderful. They should have adapted Deming in '46 not waited until '74... again hindsight.

 

It would be bad for them to try and compete in the DSLR pool, they are already thinly spread... This is hard on R users, but they (Leitz) had the same syndrome with LTM users, and Canon and Nikon equipment did not always have a nice upgrade path.

 

I've lost my flogging a dead horse smiley.

 

Noel

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... [Leica] failed to repeat their rangefinder sales when they tried SLR. Nikon and Canon had upped their game....

I was told by a Nikon representative that Nikon sold its greatest number of cameras ever the year the original Leicaflex came out: It proved that "Leica didn't get it," and freed the fence-sitters to buy the Nikon F.

 

 

... Zeiss did not do any better with the Contarex from '58 on....

Boy, Noel, just think what would have happened if Zeiss had been able to hang on: Since they already had interchangeable film backs (for both Contarex and Contaflex!), they'd have been able to do the DMR thing with cameras going back to the 60's. :rolleyes:

Edited by ho_co
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...although a M2 was more expensive then e.g. a Canon P by a margin, and the Canon is/was a better camera...

 

Noel,

 

You're a brave man dissing the M2 on this forum ;) I dare say that the M2 might be the most loved M of all.

 

Out of curiosity, why do you feel the P is/was superior?

 

On the OPs topic...I've watched many of my favorite cameras go away as financial pressures dictate winners and losers. if you like film your R investments will serve you well into the future.

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Short of reviving the R series, what action or statement from Leica would satisfy you?

 

It does not appear feasible to revive the R-series. However, my point is that there were rather misleading and very badly botched communications on this issue, which unfortunately made the whole approach look rather clumsy, in a Keystone Cops sort of way. This is not to anyone's interest, and should have been handled better.

 

What I think would be nice would be some limited, even if third-party and relatively expensive, continued support for the system on the digital front (I agree that film is fine as it stands; however, digital needs upgrading and service support on a periodic basis). This could be done by, using a technologically equivalent analogy, making the R-system open-source as far as IP issues are concerned. Such a gesture would be viewed as magnanimous by customers, and could be very likely to encourage some manufacturers to offer niche products (DMR-2?) and services (software upgrades, servicing, etc). If Leica has truly abandoned the R-system, then please open it up to third-party support and development!

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The third party support comes from the other dSLR manufacturers above.

 

As has been said, the R market was always niche, even in Leica, which is a niche company itself. The return on capital for someone to make an R compatible camera, with full open aperture metering etc, AND with a sensor that is going to satisfy current DMR users just isn't there.

 

Leica R cameras sold so well that, even 10 years on, it is STILL possible to buy a brand new, in box, fully warranted R8.

 

I fully agree about Leica's communications, but I also fully understand and support their decision to drop the R line completely. I say that as an R user, with more R lenses than M and as a DMR owner who sold his DMR in anticipation of an R10 which never came. I'd rather have "Leica" without the R10 or any R camera than no "Leica" at all.

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They're still talking with Panasonic to make a kind of Canon 5D II for R-lenses, but competitive too. :p. Panasonic keeps on calculating but they don't manage to make it work, manual focus is too risky in today's market. It has to have live-view and HD-video too.

But Posto, Canon has a nice wide bayonet, so you can attach all brands of lenses to it, because there are very good 'third party' adapters. No need to open up patents

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Other headline news from 2008...;):D

 

Seriously, whilst I sympathise I am not crying over it. I had an R7 and a range of nice R glass but I have sold most of it on, and moved on. I have recently acquired (again) a mint Nikon FM3A and I am looking forward to using it with R glass. There are plenty of solutions out there and Leica did the right thing at the time - you could even say it was what they should have done long ago.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

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I've lost my flogging a dead horse smiley.

 

Noel

 

Here you go!

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

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STOP!!! We still haven't done with the "why did Leica dump the screw thread camera users" yet. Once we've got to the bottom of that, then we can move onto the R issue.

 

James, screw-mount users are happily catered for even with digital M! (Not that I have tried that combo.) We haven't heard a peep from them anyway.

 

Dumping old threads and mounts is hardly new, if not popular. Canon is one of the worst, and there are many more. How about cell phone connectors and plugs and computer connections -- all constantly changing, and all totally incompatible!

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Yes you can use screw thread lenses on an M, but Leica suddenly dropped the thread mount lenses, so you can't buy new Leica lenses for your lllf.

 

It's an outrage and I demand an apology. Leica, are you hearing me?! :D

 

And why no digital upgrade program for the Barnacks? Another outrage.

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