azuled Posted March 30, 2015 Share #1 Posted March 30, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) A blogger I follow posted Dust causing scratches to the Leica ME and M9 Sensor? I'm not sure. - Jeremiah Rogers, about what he perceived as a shutter/sensor clearance issue causing scratches. What are the communities thoughts on what he is saying? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 30, 2015 Posted March 30, 2015 Hi azuled, Take a look here Potential sensor scratch issue?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
pop Posted March 30, 2015 Share #2 Posted March 30, 2015 This thread would be a good place to start. Briefly: the damage to the sensor is not caused by the shutter. Leica replaces sensors which are damaged due to this problem free of charge; they also may offer an upgrade to a more recent model which does not have this problem. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bernie.lcf Posted March 30, 2015 Share #3 Posted March 30, 2015 Re the blog entry. It's really hard to say what happened here, but in some 15 years of using DSLRs (essentially since the Canon D30) I have yet to see an actual scratch on any of my cameras (M cameras included). I occasionally clean my sensors - I have been doing it the nice way for many years now, but that D30 actually saw me cleaning its sensor with some optical paper on a stick and no liquid... Also, the clearance between the shutter and the sensor is visible when you put the camera into sensor cleaning mode. I find it hard to believe that anything in the camera would scratch the sensor as there are absolutely no reports about this to be found anywhere on the net. So, we are left with just some guy's story on his Leica. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted March 30, 2015 Share #4 Posted March 30, 2015 What are the communities thoughts on what he is saying? Anybody who never cleans his sensor and them complains that dust is scratching it needs a lesson in common sense. No dust = no scratches. Perhaps this is what Leica found difficult to say without calling into question the owners house keeping. Personally I don't buy the dirt scratching the sensor argument. I just cleaned my MM sensor and just guessing there has to be at least a half millimetre gap between the sensor and the shutter, so that is big dust! I also don't buy the suspicious argument that continually stresses he has never touched his M9 sensor, it's the sort of thing people say when they've had somebody else touch it to clean it, and then find it's been scratched and want to avoid paying for the damage. Steve Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bernie.lcf Posted March 30, 2015 Share #5 Posted March 30, 2015 Well, ok... now that we are speculating: the scratch is horizontal the shutter operates vertically sensors are cleaned horizontally (as per the instruction of most of the products out there) Yes, the scratch is not perfectly horizontal, but it is much closer to horizontal than it is to vertical. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremiahrogers Posted March 30, 2015 Share #6 Posted March 30, 2015 Author here. I never touched it or tried to clean it nor had anyone else clean it. I never tried to clean it as I was under the impression that only Leica was allowed to clean it. Hence the trip to Singapore. My meter broke two weeks after buying the camera. I never complained about that, it was a blessing in disguise. Later got it fixed at the Leica store in Tokyo. Maybe Leica Tokyo cleaned it when they fixed the meter, but they didn't mention it and the issue showed up much later. This is a more serious issue than a busted meter, which is why I'm bringing it up. A week between responses and evading questions isn't what I expect from a company. I'm open to ideas on how the sensor can get scratched without attempts to clean it or touch it. So far no ideas come to mind.... Hence my assumption that it might be the shutter. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremiahrogers Posted March 30, 2015 Share #7 Posted March 30, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) Phillip, the link you gave discusses corrosion not scratches. What am I missing? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted March 30, 2015 Share #8 Posted March 30, 2015 Phillip, the link you gave discusses corrosion not scratches. What am I missing? You are missing that it probably isn't a scratch but a line of corrosion. My Monochrom had a similar (though shorter) line that Leica in London initially tried to suggest was a scratch but subsequently admitted was a form of delamination and Leica in Wetzlar replaced it (slowly) under the "goodwill guarantee". 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bernie.lcf Posted March 30, 2015 Share #9 Posted March 30, 2015 I'm open to ideas on how the sensor can get scratched without attempts to clean it or touch it. So far no ideas come to mind.... Hence my assumption that it might be the shutter. Shutter is unlikely as shutter implies that air movement has caused a particle to scratch the sensor glass. Additionally, the long scratch on the top of the image (which on the sensor is at the bottom, if you look at it) would be an estimated 5-6mm in length. That's a really long scratch for something moved by air. You should be able to see this with your eyes when you put the camera into sensor cleaning mode. This implies that the scratch was caused by something else than the shutter. Of course, the immediate cause that comes to mind would be improper sensor cleaning. Your questions regarding the shutter are actually not relevant (if the shutter would do this, we would have tons of complaints already) and customer service wouldn't be able to answer them anyway. To them, you are trying to divert their attention. I am sorry, I don't have a good answer for you. Based on your explanation, the most likely cause is improper sensor cleaning by somebody during the life cycle of this camera. Personally, I would have relied on Photoshop for a while (how often do you go f16, considering diffraction kicks in around f8/f11?) and as soon as the sensor corrosion issue hits your camera, I would have asked Leica to replace it for free under their policy - which they probably would have. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted March 30, 2015 Share #10 Posted March 30, 2015 It's a little damaging to his credibility that the photo where he spotted the scratches already shows a very dusty sensor (what photographer would use a camera like that?) and he can't hold the camera straight! Dust can usually be cleaned away with a puffer. I don't know why anyone wouldn't do that, even if they're terrified of wet cleaning! Could it be oil streaks which have dried on the sensor glass? Has anyone attempted a proper clean yet? I'd be wary of Leica service because they seem to suggest replacement as the default option - as in this case - why haven't they said "we have given the sensor a full clean and this is what remains..." ? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bernie.lcf Posted March 30, 2015 Share #11 Posted March 30, 2015 You are missing that it probably isn't a scratch but a line of corrosion. I believe that corrosion has been identified as an area with a dark center surrounded by a very light (white) and irregular border. Under this definition (taken from an LFI article) a regular shaped line would be a scratch. In any case, the technician should be able to identify this correctly using his tools. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted March 30, 2015 Share #12 Posted March 30, 2015 (edited) I believe that corrosion has been identified as an area with a dark center surrounded by a very light (white) and irregular border. It also manifests as a series of small dots in a line that can resemble a scratch (the line in the blog photo is admittedly significantly sharper than the line that afflicted my Monochrom but it is difficult to tell from screen grabs, etc.). The "scratch" form of corrosion seems to be more common on the Monochrom for some reason. Edited March 30, 2015 by wattsy Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremiahrogers Posted March 30, 2015 Share #13 Posted March 30, 2015 Damaging to my credibility? Give me a break. I don't take a lot of pictures of the sky since I usually shoot photos of people. There's an earlier shot from sunrise ar Angkor wat showing it which I found last night. As for f16.... I like depth of field. 1/125 sec, ISO 400 or 800 and stop down to meter properly. Diffraction is a vastly overstated problem vs not getting a shot. Skewed photo? Come on. I was facing the other direction and popped around at a moments notice to take pictures as the monks got startled by pigeons who were also flying in my face. I didn't edit this photo at all on purpose to maintain credibility. You can read Magnum photographer John Vink's discussion of dust issues here: © John Vink / Magnum Photos These issues didn't show up in regular work until an accidental sky exposure. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremiahrogers Posted March 30, 2015 Share #14 Posted March 30, 2015 Here's the original unsharped photo from Leica. The scratch is not as sharp as in the contrast adjusted photo I posted. https://www.dropbox.com/s/y9lwswus9e3dnng/photo%20mar%2010%2C%205%2031%2039%20pm.jpg?dl= Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted March 30, 2015 Share #15 Posted March 30, 2015 As for f16.... I like depth of field. 1/125 sec, ISO 400 or 800 and stop down to meter properly. What do you mean by stop down to meter properly? Why hasn't a full sensor clean been attempted? Your sensor was extremely dusty, I'm surprised that the dust didn't become enough of an issue for you beforehand. That amount of dust wouldn't work its way in unless you make regular lens changes and don't clean the rear elements of your lenses. Some dust/oil is created as a part of the 'running in' process of most new cameras. It's wise to clean the sensor after using a new camera for few weeks. I don't know why Leica announced that people shouldn't clean their sensors (although I think that was their first response to the 'corrosion' issue before they accepted it as a manufacturing issue). Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bernie.lcf Posted March 30, 2015 Share #16 Posted March 30, 2015 I don't know why Leica announced that people shouldn't clean their sensors (although I think that was their first response to the 'corrosion' issue before they accepted it as a manufacturing issue). ... because it has also been identified (stated in the same LFI article) that moisture, especially through wet cleaning the sensor, is believed to increase the likelyhood of sensor corrosion. Therefore they suggest that for the time being people stick to air. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremiahrogers Posted March 30, 2015 Share #17 Posted March 30, 2015 When I purchased this camera new in Osaka there was a sticker on the lens cap saying not to clean the sensor myself. I followed those instructions. Most of that dust was on my old really rough 35mm Summicron and its filter. The major dust spots came off once I cleaned the 35 cron and tried a 50 Zeiss f2. If I recall this may have been one of my first times shooting the Leica in a few weeks. I live in Phnom Penh, known for thefts, so I began using a comparatively much cheaper Canon setup back in November or January... Somewhere in there, Now since we are going into biographical territory here this was I believe one of my first intentional shots at f/10 or smaller on the Leica. I'm working with an instructor these days who is trying to build my ability to meter in my head. Save long exposures, I usually kept the ISO low and the shutter varied. I preferred f4 for a long time. Anyway that's when all the dust and shit showed up. After the fact I switched permanently to my Canon 6D until I could figure out how to get it cleaned. Mailing a Leica from the very "interesting" services available in Cambodia looked risky and postal insurance on a camera like that isn't so affordable. I took it to Bangkok to mail from there, but ended up having a friend hand carry it for me from BKK to Singapore. I assure you that I'm not trying to be evasive here. I had the camera in my backpack for months and shot 22,000 or so exposures. Surely this wouldn't happen in a clean room, but Cambodia isn't the cleanest place. I feel inadequately warned about these risks if they are indeed scratches. Having hand to God not touched or tried to clean that sensor, per what I brleived was best practice, I'm upset at an $875 bill. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremiahrogers Posted March 30, 2015 Share #18 Posted March 30, 2015 What do you mean by stop down to meter properly? Why hasn't a full sensor clean been attempted? Your sensor was extremely dusty, I'm surprised that the dust didn't become enough of an issue for you beforehand. That amount of dust wouldn't work its way in unless you make regular lens changes and don't clean the rear elements of your lenses. 1) generally shoot 1/125 sec and vary aperture 2) because I don't live anywhere near a Leica store 3) John Vink cites same issues without removing his lens. Article cited above. Shoots for Magnum, might know a thing or two about cameras. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremiahrogers Posted March 30, 2015 Share #19 Posted March 30, 2015 Additionally, the long scratch on the top of the image (which on the sensor is at the bottom, if you look at it) would be an estimated 5-6mm in length. That's a really long scratch for something moved by air. You should be able to see this with your eyes when you put the camera into sensor cleaning mode. This implies that the scratch was caused by something else than the shutter. Of course, the immediate cause that comes to mind would be improper sensor cleaning. Your questions regarding the shutter are actually not relevant (if the shutter would do this, we would have tons of complaints already) and customer service wouldn't be able to answer them anyway. To them, you are trying to divert their attention. I am sorry, I don't have a good answer for you. Based on your explanation, the most likely cause is improper sensor cleaning by somebody during the life cycle of this camera. Thanks for this response, it was very helpful. I agree that the top line appears to be a scratch, at least it's relatively straight. What do you think of the mess of things on the bottom right? Potentially a very sharp piece of something got back there and caused these as the camera was moving around. But given the timing I know with reasonable certainty (other than sabotage) that no one else was using the camera or trying to clean it. Leaves me very confused. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brill64 Posted March 30, 2015 Share #20 Posted March 30, 2015 Damaging to my credibility? Give me a break. I don't take a lot of pictures of the sky since I usually shoot photos of people. There's an earlier shot from sunrise ar Angkor wat showing it which I found last night. As for f16.... I like depth of field. 1/125 sec, ISO 400 or 800 and stop down to meter properly. Diffraction is a vastly overstated problem vs not getting a shot. Skewed photo? Come on. I was facing the other direction and popped around at a moments notice to take pictures as the monks got startled by pigeons who were also flying in my face. I didn't edit this photo at all on purpose to maintain credibility. You can read Magnum photographer John Vink's discussion of dust issues here: © John Vink / Magnum Photos These issues didn't show up in regular work until an accidental sky exposure. ..keep cool as no one is or should be judging you by your unfortunate scratch, your technique or your work. if they are, shame on them & they embarrass themselves in front of others genuinely trying to help. easy to misunderstand sometimes when discussing online but as always, filter out anything negative. responding emotionally gives detractors what they want...a useless spat. so good luck getting it solved & fixed. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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