peterjcb Posted March 14, 2015 Share #1 Posted March 14, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) I'm a fairly new Leica user and coming from a Pentax DSLR system (which I still use) I found that with my M8 and 50 Cron / 28 Elmarit lenses, I need surprisingly very little PP. It seems as if you just can't take a bad photo with either of those 2 lenses and the M8... I am entertaining the thought of acquiring a Monochrom in the future as I shoot pretty much all black and white anyway. How much PP is needed with the Monochrom? I've been reading that the files out of the camera are very flat and need work to make them look good. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 14, 2015 Posted March 14, 2015 Hi peterjcb, Take a look here PP with the Monochrom ?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
batmobile Posted March 14, 2015 Share #2 Posted March 14, 2015 The short answer (for me) is that all the files need PP, but once you are used to it, it is incredibly quick and often far quicker than with other cameras. The alternative would be to use DxO Filmpack 5, Nik Silver Efex Pro 2, Alienskin film emulation software and just run them through a standard preset for a film type you find makes the files look good. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted March 14, 2015 Share #3 Posted March 14, 2015 I've never come across a camera where the files need no pp, but especially so with the Monochrom because the files can be so good they deserve all the extra care and attention possible. The .dng files can be flat straight out the camera but that is an ideal starting point, rather than Leica dictating the way you represent your world it is giving you the tools to make your own choices. That said there is some inbuilt character possible by using the considerable ISO range to give you very nice noise/digital grain even if you don't need to push the ISO because of the light. I've got no idea what the JPEG options give you but for .dng the Monochrom is a stunning camera. Steve 5 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jager Posted March 14, 2015 Share #4 Posted March 14, 2015 (edited) Yes, files straight out of the MM are 'flat.' That is by design, so that all luminance and tonal values are captured. A high-end film scan, a la a Nikon 9000 or an Imacon or a drum scan, will do the same thing. Basic PP on a Monochrom file only takes a few seconds in Lightroom. The most important thing for moving from 'flat' to the scene that you saw is to set the black point. Adjusting exposure, highlight recovery, shadows, and white point then take just a few seconds more. All those controls are simple sliders. You can, of course, do a much deeper dive into PP - and some challenging or very important images beg for that. But what I've described will get you 90% there and only takes eight or ten seconds. As an aside, I also agree with Steve and batmobile... I don't know that I've ever seen a digital file that didn't need at least modest PP. Certainly all RAW files. It's just part of the deal that comes with digital... Edited March 14, 2015 by Jager Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 14, 2015 Share #5 Posted March 14, 2015 You can basically process them any way you want, as mentioned above. Just one pitfall: Don’t touch clarity in the development module in the beginning. It is very prone to produce haloes. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ndevlin Posted March 14, 2015 Share #6 Posted March 14, 2015 I'm just beginning to experiment with MM files, but have found that it is fairly light on PP needs compare to a lot of other cameras. That, however, is likely because of the lack of colour info. You will almost always want to expand the contrast range. If you've protected the highlights, you will usually want to bring up the shadow tones and the highlight tones, and sometimes need to stretch the black point down somewhat. With the 645z, I find the image benefits from quite a lot of clarity. Often applied locally. With the MM, clarity doesn't do much good. A light sharpening does help - remember to mask out most of the image to avoid sharpening noise. I have experimented a little with SFX conversions. I always prefer SFX when converting color files. So far it's 50/50 with the MM.I always use film simulation presets on colour, but with the MM, I'm not sure that's always best. SFX curves the tone quite hard. If you're looking for that kind of thing, it's great. I like the MM with some 'grain' added by SFX (LR 'grain' still sucks) at low ISOs. The MM is also surprisingly noisy at higher ISOs that everyone describes as highly usable. They are usable, but really suffer compared to current CMOS tech. That's just reality. Have fun. The joy of LR is non-destructive editing, so play!! - N. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenshacker Posted March 14, 2015 Share #7 Posted March 14, 2015 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) I've compared the M Monochrom, Nikon Df, and M8 using raw mode at ISO5000. The lenses on the M Monochrom and M8 are ~70 years old. Monochrom4_F15_ISO5000 by fiftyonepointsix, on Flickr Nikon Df, ISO5000 by fiftyonepointsix, on Flickr M8_4_F15_ISO5000 by fiftyonepointsix, on Flickr With the M Monochrom- Some owners rely more on color filters than Post Processing. I tend to use the color filters, Lightroom, and minimal changes in post. Edited March 14, 2015 by Lenshacker Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tookaphotoof Posted March 14, 2015 Share #8 Posted March 14, 2015 Wouldn't it be better if you compared the end results in b/w? My mind is changing constantly wether I should pick up a second hand Monochrom or not. The thing is, it's not cheap and I'd like to know what I could achieve myself with it. If I can't get better results out of it than my M240 It wouldn't be worth the investment for me. Unfortunately it's not easy to find a shop that lets you test the camera extensively... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterjcb Posted March 14, 2015 Author Share #9 Posted March 14, 2015 I've never come across a camera where the files need no pp, but especially so with the Monochrom because the files can be so good they deserve all the extra care and attention possible. The .dng files can be flat straight out the camera but that is an ideal starting point, rather than Leica dictating the way you represent your world it is giving you the tools to make your own choices. That said there is some inbuilt character possible by using the considerable ISO range to give you very nice noise/digital grain even if you don't need to push the ISO because of the light. I've got no idea what the JPEG options give you but for .dng the Monochrom is a stunning camera. Steve Below is typical of what I get out of my M8 / 50mm Summicron-M...jpg right out of the camera with no PP. I never get files like that out of any other cameras that I own. If the M8 can produce images like that then I'm pretty excited about what the MM can do... got to start selling some of my least used lenses and raising funds for the Monochrom now..... L1026374_jpg by peterjcb, on Flickr 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted March 14, 2015 Share #10 Posted March 14, 2015 (edited) Below is typical of what I get out of my M8 / 50mm Summicron-M...jpg right out of the camera with no PP. I never get files like that out of any other cameras that I own. If the M8 can produce images like that then I'm pretty excited about what the MM can do... It's not what comes out of your camera IMO, but what comes out of your printer. And I've never produced a framable print in my life….film or digital…that didn't require PP actions. Toward that end, the RAW (DNG) file will always give you more flexibility. If you don't buy into that approach, and prefer JPEG as an end product, without PP discipline, it seems you're likely to be disappointed in the MM. The high dynamic range of that camera in particular will produce much flatter files than from your M8…but maybe better files for you to use. Jeff Edited March 14, 2015 by Jeff S Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ndevlin Posted March 14, 2015 Share #11 Posted March 14, 2015 Let's be blunt: if you're not fairly serious about mastering digital darkroom work, you have no need for a $6K specialist B&W camera. Will you get much better B&W from an MM than a 240? Probably not. Get it only because you want a pure B&W camera and that idea turns you on creatively. As good as the MM is, the differences between what it produces and what can be achieved with a top-end DSLR or M240 is relatively small. Shoot it because you want a B&W Leica. Get it for its Leicaness in particular . And only if you have a commitment to learning a consistent post-production workflow. Or because you have money to burn and it makes you happy My 2c. - N. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterjcb Posted March 14, 2015 Author Share #12 Posted March 14, 2015 I shoot and save both RAW+jpg and there's no question about the value of the RAW files. I've salvaged many files that seemed worthless as jpegs but looked pretty acceptable utilizing the RAW file in PP. At the end of the day what really matters to me is not whether the files are RAW or .jpeg but what they look like to my eyes. My point being that the .jpeg out of the M8 are outstanding IMO and usually need very little PP or none at all. If I had a MM I'm sure that since the MM files are flat I'd have to do a little more PP than I'm doing with the .jpegs from my M8 but that's not a problem. I just wanted to know what to expect from the MM. Thanks for all the insights... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenshacker Posted March 14, 2015 Share #13 Posted March 14, 2015 Pilot's Day 2014, Udvar Hazy by fiftyonepointsix, on Flickr This is a straight export from LR4. Orange filter. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BerndReini Posted March 14, 2015 Share #14 Posted March 14, 2015 I'm not sure whether Leica still has the test-for-a-day program. I think you really need to try the Monochrom for yourself. I'm not sure whether Wilfredo or someone else on the forum still owns both an MM and an M8, but maybe someone could supply a comparison Raw file for you to play with. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenshacker Posted March 14, 2015 Share #15 Posted March 14, 2015 M Monochrom Manassas Battlefield by fiftyonepointsix, on Flickr M8 Manassas Battlefield by fiftyonepointsix, on Flickr I have the M8, M9, and M Monochrom. A member of a different forum had requested some DNG files last Spring, gave me a good chance to walk around Manassas Battlefield a few times. I can post DNG files to Dropbox if you are interested, send a PM. I use M8RAW2DNG for the M8 almost exclusively, so I have uncompressed DNG files for the M8. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fotografr Posted March 14, 2015 Share #16 Posted March 14, 2015 One huge difference between the M8 and MM is the quality of high ISO files. Images taken at 5000 ISO with the MM look better than images taken at 800 with the M8. It's true the MM files look much better after pp, but Silver Efex Pro II is supplied with the camera and is an excellent and intuitive software for making them look great. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenshacker Posted March 14, 2015 Share #17 Posted March 14, 2015 http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/362666-m8-raw-mode-comparison-m-monochrom.html If you take the time and effort to use the M8 to get uncompressed DNG files, you pick up about a 2 Stop improvement in High-ISO performance. M8 at ISO2500 becomes close to ISO5000 with the Monochrom. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted March 15, 2015 Share #18 Posted March 15, 2015 Below is typical of what I get out of my M8 / 50mm Summicron-M...jpg right out of the camera with no PP. I never get files like that out of any other cameras that I own. If the M8 can produce images like that then I'm pretty excited about what the MM can do...got to start selling some of my least used lenses and raising funds for the Monochrom now..... A very nice picture, but in terms of resolution alone you will definitely get better than that with the Monochrom, it would be more like large format film quality with the Monochrom where the M8 is nudging just above 35mm film quality. And the uses of of PP are here clearly shown, you could straighten the horizon very easily Steve Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 15, 2015 Share #19 Posted March 15, 2015 That is a lot of nasty moiré you have there... Below is typical of what I get out of my M8 / 50mm Summicron-M...jpg right out of the camera with no PP. I never get files like that out of any other cameras that I own. If the M8 can produce images like that then I'm pretty excited about what the MM can do...got to start selling some of my least used lenses and raising funds for the Monochrom now..... L1026374_jpg by peterjcb, on Flickr Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 15, 2015 Share #20 Posted March 15, 2015 I'm a fairly new Leica user and coming from a Pentax DSLR system (which I still use) I found that with my M8 and 50 Cron / 28 Elmarit lenses, I need surprisingly very little PP.It seems as if you just can't take a bad photo with either of those 2 lenses and the M8... I am entertaining the thought of acquiring a Monochrom in the future as I shoot pretty much all black and white anyway. How much PP is needed with the Monochrom? I've been reading that the files out of the camera are very flat and need work to make them look good. In my view how much PP you need is not really a relevant question if you consider that shooting with B&W film,one also had a choice: you could either drop your film off at the local drugstore and get automatically processed (and adjusted prints) that were usually bland — or you could use a custom lab or develop and print yourself of to make prints that looked thee way you wanted them to look: that look could that of a "fine print" of the type that Aselm Adams made or it could be the rough, high-contrast look of, say, Moriyama Daida or William Klein — or anywhere in between. The same with the M-Monochrom. Come to think gf it, Leica's presentation of the M-Monochrom with the high-contract prints of Jacob Aue Sobol's large prints was brilliant: while many people did not like this look everyone saw that Sobol could get the same with his M-Monochrom that he got with Tri-X. With the M-Monochrom one can also achieve whatever look one wants, whether on wants richness of fullness of tones, resolution or high contrast. While I use Lightroom I've found that, for pictures I care about, I get better results by using Siver Efex (SEFEX) because it adds an element of "randomness" — maybe "contingency" is a better word for this — in the way processing and printing film does and, therefore, yields more interesting results. However, SEFEX can be a nightmare when you first start using it and search through the myriad of presets and sliders to get the combination that you want for any particular photograph. I've found a new way of processing (both M-Monochrom and B&W from the M9) that I've adopted using SEFEX under Lightroom, based on the ideas of this short video clip:. The clip shows the method this photographer uses for XT-1 files and for producing a high-contrast look, but it can, of course, be tuned for the M-Monochrom or the M9 and for a lower contrast look. For example, I use the No. 11 present and the apply the Tri-X preset rather than the TMax 400 used in the clip — and I reduce the Silver Efex grain setting somewhat. The essential idea is, however, to flatten the original file that you put into SEFEX. The ideas in the linked video provide a quick and effective method of using SEFEX. Also, an important element in using SEFEX is the setting of the Fine and Midtone Structure as well as the fine contrast adjustments. My way of processing M-Monochrom files is first to click the Auto adjustment in the Lightroom Basic panel and then adjust many the Exposure and Contrast. Then I apply on of the VSCO presets (mostly Tri-X 400-, Neopan 1600- or Neopan 400--), depending on the contrast range in the DNG file, to see the general look that I want when working with SEFEX. If I have no interest in printing the file or ising it for a book project, I stop there. Otherwise, I flatten the file and put it into SEFEX, using the general methodology shown in the link. After the file has gone through SEFEX, I make some final adjustments, including any dodging or burning, in Lightroom. All this is very quick once you've made some tests and refined the method. Here are some examples that I've already posted elsewhere: M-Monochrom | DR Summicron-50 | ISO 320 |f/4.0 | 1/180 Bangkok M-Monochrom | Macro-Elmar-M 90mm f/4 | ISO 1,250 |f/8.0 | 1/125 Bangkok M-Monochrom | DR-Summicron-50 | ISO 320 |f/4.0 | 1/1000 Bangkok Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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