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Buying an M9 too risky?


richj_gsy

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Hi,

Just wanted to canvas opinions on this. I'm (still) trying to decide between buying an M9 or an M240. But Is buying an M9 now simply too risky? I am a little worried that if I buy one now, due to the sensor issue, in a few years' time, I won't be able to trade it in against a newer M if I want to. Or should I just go for an M240 instead (I currently have an M8). Thoughts?

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It's a fair question - will I be ok, or will I be abandoned as it were. The challenge I have is that I have both the M9 and the M-P (240). I've not had any issues with my M9, and I have to say that I've never really 'bonded' with the 240...I perhaps need to use it more, but I find it does respond very, very differently in a given exposure/situation than my M9 does. I'm having more difficulty with exposure and getting the look I want, for reasons not clear to me (I'm not a photography beginner, at all). I'm not trying to raise the great CCD/CMOS debate, but I have to say that for the most part I like my M9 images more, particularly black and white. With an M8, known for its great black and white performance, you'll probably find this too.

 

Leica has been pretty good about support in many ways. Given the large number of M9/ME/MM I'm not so sure how much they can abandon you. Given that they're also replacing CCD sensors with the same sensors. It's a good question.

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I am a little worried that if I buy one now, due to the sensor issue, in a few years' time, I won't be able to trade it in against a newer M if I want to.

 

I don't think there is any greater risk of not being able to trade an M9 in the future than there is now – the sensor "issue" is already being factored into the marketplace (certainly it is with dealers). I guess there is a risk (probably small) that Leica will announce at some point that they can no longer obtain new sensors and will instead offer only an upgrade incentive but in that situation you will have an official "trade in" route that will almost certainly be financially fair (compared with trading in an old M9 in the future had the delamination problem never arisen). IMO the biggest risk you take now buying an M9 or Monochrom is the risk of being deprived of the camera for a period of time waiting for a replacement sensor. This will obviously vary but can be as long as three months or more.:mad:

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Thanks for the replies. I actually really like the files from my M8 - I really just need full frame. I don't need video, live view could be useful I guess, and the extra stop or so that the M240 offers could be handy. But from what I've seen I do prefer the look of M9 files. It's just that sensor issue...

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Yes, I think that purchasing an M9 (and maybe ANY digital Leica) is way too risky. I have been an avid photographer for about 50 years and in that time I have only had to have a camera serviced on 3 occasions (I had the lens of a used Hasselblad cleaned, and I had my M3 and my M4-2 CLA'd). I have NEVER had a camera break on me (except for the M9)! Well, I finally thought that I would invest in a digital Leica. What a mistake! In four years my M9 had the sensor crack TWICE, had to have the "4-way" control button replaced and NOW has the current sensor issue problem. Additionally, I've had to put up with the standard M9 issues of being slow (compared to other brands of cameras) to load the data from the photo into memory, of being finicky about using different memory cards and of having operating problems if the battery is not fully charged. I finally sold it. Nobody would put up with that type of performance from ANY other brand of camera, especially one that is so expensive, but somehow we are willing to put up with it from Leica. Let's face it the Leica film camera were, and still are the best 35mm cameras ever made, but the digital cameras just don't cut it. It's not really a comparable camera, but I purchased a Fuji X100s to replace my M9 as a street photography camera and it is WAY better than the Leica M9.

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There have been many discussions about the relative merits of M9 and M240 files. Different sensors, so differences can arise. Some cope better than others with mastery of post-processing. That also needs to be factored into the equation. If you like your M8 quality, then the M9 will be just a little bit better and full-frame.

 

As to the risk, well re-read Leica's announcement of the future support of the M9. I think it is very reassuring. It had to be if future M sales were not to be placed in jeopardy. So buy an M9 from a trusted dealer and I think you will be agreeably impressed. You also buy into dealer support which can be valuable in future.

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I liked my M9 but I'm not sorry I got rid of it. At this point the salient issue to me is that thus far they have no permanent solution, just replace a gone-bad sensor with a will-go-bad sensor. Again and again if needed. And Leica is not known for short turnaround time. Given the working similarity between the M9 and M240 and that a pre-owned-certified (warranteed) M240 is maybe $2K more than a used no-warranty M9, I know what my decision would be. (And I don't use LV or Video either. They can be disabled.) But I'm not caught up in the esoteric differences between CMOS and CCD, to me both cameras produce excellent quality in DNG. The M240 also produces excellent quality jpgs.

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....just replace a gone-bad sensor with a will-go-bad sensor. Again and again if needed.

 

First of all there is absolutely no evidence that every sensor will eventually go bad, or that every replaced sensor will eventually go bad.

 

To the OP, buy from a Leica Dealer if you decide on an M9.

 

 

Steve

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I actually purchased a M9-P and MM after the announcement was made about replacing the sensor (I trust Leica will be able to do so if needed).

 

If you're willing to pay for an M240 but feel a bit impartial to it, why not get an M9, and with the extra funds left over get a Sony A7 (they're not bad for standard M-mount lenses). You'd still have change and could use the A7 as a backup if the M9 had to be sent off for repair.

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First of all there is absolutely no evidence that every sensor will eventually go bad, or that every replaced sensor will eventually go bad.

 

To the OP, buy from a Leica Dealer if you decide on an M9.

 

 

Steve

 

But there is no assurance that it won't, since thus far the replacement features the exact same sensor glass that Leica and Schott both admit has a propensity to delaminate. Perhaps I shouldn't have said "will go bad" as if it's a certainty. It's merely an above-average probability. To me that's enough to want to steer clear of it. YMMV. People's risk tolerance varies.

 

Not sure I agree on the second point if Leica has made it clear their free replacement offer extends to subsequent owners of privately-bought cameras.

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Guest jvansmit
I'm not trying to raise the great CCD/CMOS debate, but I have to say that for the most part I like my M9 images more, particularly black and white. With an M8, known for its great black and white performance, you'll probably find this too.

 

My experience was similar. I went from M9 to M240 but struggled to get the B&W 'look' I wanted from M240 files. I sold the M240 after a few months, and then spent a few months with Fuji & Sony. During the summer, I dusted off my old M9, took it and my X-T1 away on a 2 weeks photo project, and subsequently found that out of nearly 3,000 files, I much preferred the M9 ones. To qualify this, I routinely shoot at high ISO with wide-angle lenses, and like a slightly gritty B&W look.

 

It would have been a lot less stupid in the first place if I had bothered to try out M240 files before buying it. Apart from my preference for M9 files, the M240 is a great camera. It's clearly well built, has an outstanding shutter release & rangefinder, and also the usual CMOS advantages such as higher useable ISO, matrix metering, faster shot-to-shot processing, etc.

 

Despite the M9's short-comings,I'm so happy with mine again that it's currently being upgraded to M9-P. And, yes, I know that's not rational. :D

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I'm not trying to raise the great CCD/CMOS debate, but I have to say that for the most part I like my M9 images more, particularly black and white. With an M8, known for its great black and white performance, you'll probably find this too.

 

My experience is different. I've written extensively here about my appreciation for the M8.2 files, particularly for b/w. I passed on the M9 since, while it still excelled, it offered no improvement in that regard, and lacked in other user aspects for me.

 

I now have the M 240 and have reached the point that my prints…both b/w and color….meet or exceed the level I was able to achieve with my M8.2, which now serves only as back-up. Total workflow is key.

 

Jeff

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Digital cameras are risky no matter the brand . M8 has issues, M9 has a sensor problem mostly confined to humid areas Leica tells me, 240 supposedly has color issues. Nikon D800 has a frame cracking problem. D600 had an oil splatter and D750 a flair problem Planned obsolesense renders them all with a short life.

 

Parts shortages will keep one from repairing in the future.

 

Digital has made this an increasingly expensive hobby. Those who benefit are pros who short thousands of images and those who need a fast turn around for editorial work.

 

Where you fall is up to you.

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It's merely an above-average probability..

 

There you go again. What is 'average' supposed to be? How can anybody know until a period of time has elapsed and at least some representative numbers are in? It's no good taking a snapshot of responses on LUF because as we all know this is the focus group for complaining about things, so the complainants will outweigh the silent majority in every single case.

 

But with a replacement sensor promised, or a good trade in towards an M240 or whatever comes next, buying an M9 could be a very good move, so long as you look at the 'glass half full' version of events. A cheap-ish body now, you get a six month warranty from a dealer, plus the Leica assurance of a new sensor, and if the worst happens you get a fully refurbished and CLA'd camera back. If they haven't got a sensor, or you choose to upgrade, you've then spread the cost of buying the newest model in the range. So instead of the only option being to buy an M240 now, buyers options are more flexible, and anyway, who knows when Leica will replace the aging M240, in six months, a year maybe, is that too long to make an M9 last?

 

Steve

Edited by 250swb
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But Is buying an M9 now simply too risky? Thoughts?

I think that if you see a very cheap, used M9 you should pm me so that I can check it out for you;).After that you could buy an M240 new and help Leica stay in business and make profits:eek:. I own an M9 and M8-2 and if I could justify upgrading the M8-2 to another M9 I would do so without any worries. But then I rather like the M8-2.......

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There you go again. What is 'average' supposed to be?

 

LOL "there you go again" made me recall the famous Ronald Reagan/Jimmy Carter debate. I would say "average" probability of sensor delamination would be pretty close to zero if you factor out the M9 and it's derivatives. (The Nikon D600 issue is oil spotting, not delamination. And all models of Leica M digitals have been known to spit oil on the sensor too.)

 

But with a replacement sensor promised, or a good trade in towards an M240 or whatever comes next, buying an M9 could be a very good move, so long as you look at the 'glass half full' version of events. A cheap-ish body now, you get a six month warranty from a dealer, plus the Leica assurance of a new sensor, and if the worst happens you get a fully refurbished and CLA'd camera back.

 

Yes you get it back in a few months if you're lucky and the sensors aren't on backorder. If Leica had a 1-wk max turnround on these sensor repairs that would mitigate to a good degree. I see the point though, as one can roll the dice and worst-case the option is there to trade up.

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Hi,

Just wanted to canvas opinions on this. I'm (still) trying to decide between buying an M9 or an M240. But Is buying an M9 now simply too risky? I am a little worried that if I buy one now, due to the sensor issue, in a few years' time, I won't be able to trade it in against a newer M if I want to. Or should I just go for an M240 instead (I currently have an M8). Thoughts?

 

Well, I owned a M-E, and liked it very much. Beautiful images, fun to use. An absolutely terrific camera. But I traded it in for the M240 last month, for three reasons. First, I wanted better high ISO performance, I felt limited by the M-E's effective ceiling of 800, just didn't like any the images I took using higher values. More, I realized Live View, a feature I discounted when I bought the M-E, really had advantages for my photography, both for focusing and composition, especially at longer focal lengths. Then lastly, while Leica's warranty for their CCD cameras really is unmatched - I have no reservations at all regarding it, I felt vulnerable should my M-E's sensor fail during one of my journeys. I'm older, some of those travels are once in a lifetime.

 

So I traded it in. But the primary reason was for the ISO range and availability of Live View, not for better image quality, and certainly not because of Leica's support, or lack there of, for cameras using the CCD sensor.

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Digital cameras are risky no matter the brand . M8 has issues, M9 has a sensor problem mostly confined to humid areas Leica tells me, 240 supposedly has color issues. Nikon D800 has a frame cracking problem. D600 had an oil splatter and D750 a flair problem Planned obsolesense renders them all with a short life.

 

 

 

Parts shortages will keep one from repairing in the future.

 

 

 

Digital has made this an increasingly expensive hobby. Those who benefit are pros who short thousands of images and those who need a fast turn around for editorial work.

 

 

 

Where you fall is up to you.

 

 

Noe the money goes in new cameras every 3-6 years. Calculate what You have paid in analog times for films, development, frames etc. in 3-6 years if Shoot a lot ? For me it is approx the same as an new body.

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