Very low light theatre / stage photography: suggested back-up camera for M9??

[simonpj]

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For the past three years I have been working with a theatre and performing arts school to document their productions - to provide photos for publicity and for the students' portfolios.

 

I have found that the M9 can work superbly to cover almost all of this work. With full freedom to move around the stage during dress rehearsals I find the Noctilux covers most of my needs (the long focus throw works well for me to respond to constant small shifts in focus), with the 35 Lux Asph working for smaller stages. Working at ISO 640 and adjusting exposure in post (as suggested in other threads here) I find I can work between f2 and f4 and 1/90 to 1/125 with enough flexibility in the RAW files to achieve good results in almost all lighting that I encounter.

 

However, in a couple of recent productions there were a few scenes which had extremely low lighting - such as outdoor night-time scenes, or nightmare scenes. These scenes were quite visible to the naked eye, but I found that I needed to add three to four stops extra exposure (effectively going from ISO 640 to ISO 6400) to achieve similarly visible results from my M9 shots - by which point the files were very ugly and noisy. The resulting photos are just barely acceptable as a documentary record, but really stand out as significantly poor quality compared to the rest of the photos from each show.

 

Next month I will be photographing a production of Cabaret which I know will have similarly large contrasts between fully lit and very under-lit scenes, and where I will also need to get pictures of the live band, who will be quite dimly lit.

 

Do you have suggestions or experience to share about camera / lens combinations which might work as a good back up to the M9 for these very low light theatre scenes? Does the M 240 bring enough high ISO advantage to solve the problem and offer a one camera solution? Would a Canon 5Dii or iii focus reliably in such situations? I'm wary of combining rangefinder focusing and autofocus within a shoot as I'm very confident focusing a Leica M, but quite unpracticed at autofocus.

 

Many thanks for your suggestions,

 

Simon

 

 

M9, Noctilux

Edited September 1, 2014 by simonpj

[jaapv]

In the Leica stable you would need an M Typ 240, which produces quite acceptable 6400 files, if exposed properly, otherwise one of the newer Sonys with an M adapter might suit your needs, but you do lose the lovely Leica colour rendering.

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[simonpj]

Thanks Jaap. My impression was that the M 240 provides only a 1.5 to 2 stop high ISO advantage over the M9.

 

I'd be very interested to see low light / high ISO stage or theatre examples with the M 240 if anyone has them.

[jaapv]

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/digital-post-processing-forum/343441-push-banding-how.html#post2771438

[250swb]

The Monochrom gives perfectly usable files up to 8,000 ISO, 10,000 at a push. And you get rid of those distracting colours so it's win win.

 

Steve

[zlatkob]

Do you have suggestions or experience to share about camera / lens combinations which might work as a good back up to the M9 for these very low light theatre scenes? Does the M 240 bring enough high ISO advantage to solve the problem and offer a one camera solution? Would a Canon 5Dii or iii focus reliably in such situations? I'm wary of combining rangefinder focusing and autofocus within a shoot as I'm very confident focusing a Leica M, but quite unpracticed at autofocus.

 

The Canon 5D3 will autofocus much more reliably than the Canon 5D2. I would not choose the 5D2 for this. If you only use the center AF point, then the Canon 6D will focus as well as (perhaps better than) the 5D3 in low light. However, with either camera it is important to check and adjust the autofocus micro-adjustment (AFMA) setting for each lens to get optimal autofocus. Reikan FoCal is software that will help find the correct AFMA setting.

 

For the ultimate low light (high ISO) image quality, the Sony A7S seems to be the current leader and it can use your M lenses with an adapter. The Canon 5D3 and 6D are excellent in low light too.

[wilfredo]

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I'm considering that camera for those times when I need to shoot color. I mostly shoot B&W with my MM.

Edited September 1, 2014 by wilfredo

[wilfredo]

Simon:

 

Here are some stage shots with the MM. The first shot is a performance by: Teatro Ekklesia, the second shot is singer Thurston Ray, and the third shot is from a performance by a Puerto Rican dance troupe: Danza Fiesta.

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[wda]

Excellent pictures Wilfredo. You old M8 would have struggled.

[simonpj]

Beautiful MM photos Wilfredo.

 

The world is so much simpler in B&W!

[250swb]

Brilliant Wilfredo, as a fellow theatre photographer (ex) I salute you.

 

Steve

[sanyasi]

The Monochrom gives perfectly usable files up to 8,000 ISO, 10,000 at a push. And you get rid of those distracting colours so it's win win.

 

Steve

 

I would be careful with this and other recommendations--test before using. I shoot in night clubs and concert halls. For me, get above 3200 and I am not happy. I have used the Monochrome, Canon 5D, Mark III, M9, and the M. I usually use a summicron (2.0). High Iso acceptability is in the eye of the beholder. Even if I am on target with the focus, I find the images become unacceptably soft.

 

I have had some luck with the Olympus OMD-1E, with a Leica lens mounted. It has better image stabilization than the Canon lenses. The camera has the stabilization so it works with Leica lenses. As a general rule, however, I shoot with the Canon in these situations. The auto focus works better for me. It is worth noting that the expensive Canon (forget the number), but it is the top of their line, is supposed to have better performance at high ISO, so you might think about renting it if you go the Canon route. I have not used it. One reason I gravitate toward the Canon is the file size. Shooting musicians often requires some cropping because of mike stands, music stands and other obstacles, so I like the larger file size. I do it for fun, so they don't let me re-arrange things. Sounds like you have more flexibility.

[250swb]

You have to be doing something wrong if the images are soft, 'grainy' yes, but not soft, they can be manipulated in post to make them look like the finest Tri-X images with the same emotive power for the viewer. And isn't that the important thing about theatre photography, the ability to convey emotion and sell the production rather than nit picking concerns that the theatre goer has no interest in?

[TonyField]

If adequate light is the issue with the M9, then the M240 would probably be a good choice - and keep the camera shooting style consistent between two bodies.

 

The Canon 5D-II and the 5D-III are both excellent for low light work (a slight noise quality edge to the 5D-III). Both will focus well with lighting in the ISO 6400, F2, 1/125 range. The 5D-II is really only good with centre focus point. With auto-focus, both of these camera will allow easier capture of movement - such as dance sequences.

 

I have shot thousands of rolls of film for theatre and dance with my M4's. However, today I will only shoot theatre and dance with my Canon 1D-4 and 5D-III. For the productions I shoot, I constantly need ISO 3200 and 6400. My M9 sits at home for such shoots.

 

I have tried the M9 for theatre (but not dance) and found that switching between the Canon bodies and the M9 to be very different - causing missed shots as you try to adjust.

[sanyasi]

You have to be doing something wrong if the images are soft, 'grainy' yes, but not soft, they can be manipulated in post to make them look like the finest Tri-X images with the same emotive power for the viewer. And isn't that the important thing about theatre photography, the ability to convey emotion and sell the production rather than nit picking concerns that the theatre goer has no interest in?

 

First, you say that I am doing something wrong. Then you say but it doesn't matter because that is a technical detail and it is the gestalt of the photograph that counts--at least that is what I interpret your words to mean. Please read mine very carefully. I said, that first and foremost, ISO is a matter of personal taste. I am tired of people on photography forums telling other people what they should like and not like. You have your taste. I have mine.

 

I might add. All of the photos above are outstanding from both a technical and emotional standpoint. The places I am referring to in Chicago are well known to Chicago jazz photographers. They have nowhere near that amount of light. I photographed a concert last year where the performers did not want spotlights on them. Aside from Exit signs and aisle lights, there was no light on the stage. That is how it is in one of the better known clubs in town. I talked with a professional photographer last night who has some pretty nice equipment. He doesn't even bother anymore at that space. At the end of the day, you need light to make a photograph.

Edited September 2, 2014 by sanyasi

[tobey bilek]

Nikon owns the low light kings, D4(s) and Df, 35,1.4 and 58 1.4 or Otus. Or just buy a M9 or 240.

[sdk]

The new Nikon D810 has a theater metering mode that protects highlights from overexposure. I read on Diglloyd that the mode only works with Nikon AF lenses though, not Zeiss ones, which cause the camera to revert to center-weighted metering. The D800E is pretty great in low light situations, though 3200 and 6400 are a bit noisy. Still the results are better than my M9P at high ISOs.

[Berth]

Nikon owns the low light kings, D4(s) and Df, 35,1.4 and 58 1.4 or Otus. Or just buy a M9 or 240.

 

Ditto on the Nikon D4s. Nothing Leica makes, body or lens, will touch it for low light photography.

[tobey bilek]

One thing I learned, LEICA CCD PUTS OUT lots of color noise.

 

Go into color noise in ACR or LR first. Add correction until the color dots go away.

Then deal with the luminosity noise.

 

The first files I did this way were impressive.

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[wilfredo]

Brilliant Wilfredo, as a fellow theatre photographer (ex) I salute you.

 

Steve

 

Thank you Steve. I don't shoot professionally but I love shooting performers and using my photography to support their work. The Monochrom has given me the best results ever.