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M vs MM


jimleicam3

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Hello All,

I have been using my M8, M3 for years and have added a D-lux 5 and X2. But I am finally thinking of trading everything in for a M or MM. I will keep my 35mm and 50 mm lenses, but it is a toss-up. I love shooting B&W, with my x2 that is all I did. However, is the cost difference between the M and MM worth the difference? Do most normal ( not software guys/gals), feel there is a difference between the CCD & CMOS sensors? Is the MM just a M8 with a different sensor? I will be keeping my M3 as the market for it is very limited.

I shoot anything, vacation, streets, family parties, at times I feel that my iPhone is one of the best cameras I have owned, because it is there.

Thanks everyone.

Cheers

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Hello All,

I have been using my M8, M3 for years and have added a D-lux 5 and X2. But I am finally thinking of trading everything in for a M or MM. I will keep my 35mm and 50 mm lenses, but it is a toss-up. I love shooting B&W, with my x2 that is all I did. However, is the cost difference between the M and MM worth the difference? Do most normal ( not software guys/gals), feel there is a difference between the CCD & CMOS sensors? Is the MM just a M8 with a different sensor? I will be keeping my M3 as the market for it is very limited.

I shoot anything, vacation, streets, family parties, at times I feel that my iPhone is one of the best cameras I have owned, because it is there.

Thanks everyone.

Cheers

 

The mid tones of the MM are quite special and unique but unless you can afford both or make money from B&W photographs I would go for the M.

The M's technology is much more advanced and IMHO it's more enjoyable to shoot, and the B&W is excellent

Search here, there are plenty of threads on this

Rgds

Edited by colonel
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I have a MM. Once I got it, I stopped using my M9P and sold it. I tried the M240 for a couple of weeks and didn't take to it … not the camera itself, but the files. I wasn't fond of the color files, but even less fond of the B&W conversions. I won't get into the inflammatory CCD verses CMOS debate … I just didn't like it.

 

When I had film Ms (35+ years) I think I shot a total of 10 rolls of color film, if even that. The M camera is a B&W tool for me … plenty of color cameras around, but the history and legacy of the M was built on B&W imagery. I have a hard time thinking about an M as a color camera.

 

I don't buy the better camera assertion … I do agree that the M240 is a better camera, but for me it is less than relevant … the MM is more than enough camera to do the job. In my experience, it is a simple camera that gets out of the way and stays out of the way … letting you do your thing with as few distractions and interruptions as possible.

 

However, you have to resign yourself that you are a B&W rangefinder shooter, shift to thinking in B&W, and revel in B&W imagery. Not everyone is up for that.

 

- Marc

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I have a MM. Once I got it, I stopped using my M9P and sold it. I tried the M240 for a couple of weeks and didn't take to it … not the camera itself, but the files. I wasn't fond of the color files, but even less fond of the B&W conversions. I won't get into the inflammatory CCD verses CMOS debate … I just didn't like it.

 

When I had film Ms (35+ years) I think I shot a total of 10 rolls of color film, if even that. The M camera is a B&W tool for me … plenty of color cameras around, but the history and legacy of the M was built on B&W imagery. I have a hard time thinking about an M as a color camera.

 

I don't buy the better camera assertion … I do agree that the M240 is a better camera, but for me it is less than relevant … the MM is more than enough camera to do the job. In my experience, it is a simple camera that gets out of the way and stays out of the way … letting you do your thing with as few distractions and interruptions as possible.

 

However, you have to resign yourself that you are a B&W rangefinder shooter, shift to thinking in B&W, and revel in B&W imagery. Not everyone is up for that.

 

- Marc

 

+1. I recently sold my M since I found that I was using the MM almost exclusively. And if I did use the M, I tended to convert to B&W. I also was not so happy with the colour files. I loved the rear screen and the shutter sound, but oddly never 'bonded' with it, in the way I have with the MM. It's all rather subjective, I know.

 

I have recently gone back to an M9 to replace the M, having acquired an immaculate M9 with low miles, recent service at Solms, and a fair price for the times I shoot colour. And I have enjoyed myself with that more than I did with my M.

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I own all 3 but if I could own just 1 it would be M9p or M. Why? Easy, I often want to shoot color and the b&w from M9p or M are not bad at all.

Between M and M9p....Sometimes I prefer M color, sometimes M9p color, haven't made up my mind so far.

What I hate is if the M9P/MM sometimes processes images and cant take another image for many seconds.

While some say a littler higher iso is not important for them, for me it freedom to not let low light dictate me to shoot with shallow DOF.

I also get less problems with motion blur, since I can set 1/250 as longest exp time in auto ise with the M.

Sometimes these 2 points are much more important for me than slight differences in color.

However I can denie I have some images from the M9 where I just liked everything I see, and sometimes get images from the M which seem to not satisfy me 100% in regards to color and tones.

 

If I was a 100% b&w shooter I would go for the MM for sure.

If you shoot 90% b&w you also could keep the x2 for color and use the MM for b&w.

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I have both (along with M6, M8, M9). The M came first and I did not consider buying the MM until one came up at a price that was too good to pass. I have not regretted it one moment.

 

The MM files are very malleable in terms of DR, as long as you expose properly and don't burn the highlights. The detail retained in the shadows is impressive, and so are the mid-tone gradation and the high-ISO "grain". You'll have to be prepared to spend some time on the computer, as the M files really shine with the proper post-processing applied. Ergonomically, it doesn't match the M, but is a clear step up compared to the M8 (not so much IMO if you have an M8.2).

 

The M240 files give you more flexibility in terms of BW conversion through the channel mixer and, with a bit of practice, you can get results very close to those produced by the MM, except in the higher ISO range and in the shadows.

 

Any CCD vs. CMOS difference is irrelevant in this case, as there are many more important variables at play when comparing the respective BW output.

 

Bottom line: if you do mostly BW and are happy to keep using your iPhone (or other camera) for color, then get the MM; if you want more versatility, with the ability to shoot colour, and a somewhat more ergonomically refined camera, then buy the M.

FWIW, if I had to keep only one it would be the M, but the magic of the MM's BW would be sorely missed.

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I have 2 M240's and 2 MM's. They are both nice to have. If I had a budget for one it would be the M240. Unless I was all about BW, then it would be the MM.

 

Here is a M240 shot I did a few days ago. (out of the cam jpeg)

 

(nsfw)

 

zonefocused : Photo

 

Still trying to figure out how to do circle crops!

 

MM is about 20% sharper than the M240, but don't hold me to that figure. Just an estimate.

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Obviously depends on your tastes, preferences, skills and end goal, which for me is a framed print if the pic is deemed worthy.

 

I shot virtually all b/w in my film days, with film Ms and lots of other cameras and formats up to 8x10, and processed/printed/framed everything myself.

 

Digital did two key things…obviously changed my workflow, but also prompted me to shoot color. I can now do things in the 'lightroom' with b/w and now color that I couldn't accomplish in the darkroom.

 

I've learned over many years…in film and digital…that the final product comes from the total workflow, not just a camera or lens. In fact, I can now re-process and re-print pics I made with my M8.2 a few years ago and get much better results due to changes since then in papers, profiles, editing software improvements, etc, as well as my skill level.

 

So, back to the gear. My first digital camera was the M8.2. I loved it for b/w and, as I said, came to appreciate it for color capability as well. I passed on the M9 after testing, and found no need given my goals to upgrade. But I did get an M240 last year. Bottom line, the M8.2 is relegated to back-up status, as I can get as good or better results in b/w and color than I could with the M8.2, and some of that is due to the rest of my processing chain that has also improved.

 

I still have a special feeling for b/w that I probably will never attain for color. Toward that end, I do intend to try an MM ( probably rent or borrow from a friendly dealer) to see whether I see any benefits, in print and/or in terms of shooting experience. I'll wait to make that test, however, for two reasons. First, I'm not displeased with my current results. And, I've become spoiled by the M240 platform, e.g., shutter feel and reduction of motor re-cock noise (more film-M-like), better RF, longer battery life, faster processor, weather sealing (even if not perfect, still better), more flexibility for use of longer lenses, LV that allows for quick and easy camera/lens calibration testing even if one never uses it for other purposes, etc.

 

So I'll wait to see whether there's eventually a new MM based on the new M platform. Until then, the M240 is plenty good enough as part of that longer chain to a wonderful looking print…assuming I do my part. But, to once and for all satisfy my curiosity, I will no doubt try an MM at some point….and maybe even compare MM iterations if that comes to pass. My rule is to try something to see what works best for me, not rely on others' opinions.

 

Jeff

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I have 2 M240's and 2 MM's. They are both nice to have. If I had a budget for one it would be the M240. Unless I was all about BW, then it would be the MM.

 

Here is a M240 shot I did a few days ago. (out of the cam jpeg)

 

(nsfw)

 

zonefocused : Photo

 

Still trying to figure out how to do circle crops!

 

MM is about 20% sharper than the M240, but don't hold me to that figure. Just an estimate.

 

Some things cannot be unseen.

:D

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I own and love both. And the MM is a complete personal thing. You'll need an M cause your friends and family will love the colors. And it works fine for BW as well. But the MM only work in BW so there is no color and you might run into trouble with your friends and family when arguing for the BW shots. And the killer argument for them is, from color to BW is a question of choice whilst shooting with the MM is a one way street. ;)

Don't ask for the higher ISO and the better noise of the MM. You can easily work with the M at ISO 3200 as long as you expose correctly.

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I own and love both. And the MM is a complete personal thing. You'll need an M cause your friends and family will love the colors. And it works fine for BW as well. But the MM only work in BW so there is no color and you might run into trouble with your friends and family when arguing for the BW shots. And the killer argument for them is, from color to BW is a question of choice whilst shooting with the MM is a one way street. ;)

Don't ask for the higher ISO and the better noise of the MM. You can easily work with the M at ISO 3200 as long as you expose correctly.

 

Last vacation my wife wanted color, tight telephoto shots, sweeping wide shots, and everything in between. With that in mind I bought a Canon 6D and 24-105 zoom lens. It worked great, I was able to shoot everything, color and sharpness were fantastic. It just wasn't any fun and the images didn't have that special look.

 

We also brought a little Sony RX100m2 and used it about as much as the 6D. Results were quite close in fair to good light, and good enough even in poor light.

 

The lesson? I sold the 6D and Canon glass and bought another lens for my M Monochrom. Next time, we'll bring the little Sony and the MM as well, then I can get the color vacation pics and the amazing images with that special look as well. Who knows, the wife might even come to like the black and white.

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  • 2 months later...

Having used both for a while I can see a discernible difference only when I use a tripod. Handheld, the advantages of either disappear and the prints are nearly indistinguishable (when M files are converted to BW). Being able to add a filter after capture is nice.

 

It then becomes a question of ergonomics and whether or not the features of the M are important. The one thing I like about live view is that it reminds me of using a view camera, only better because the image is not upside down and reversed. Therefore, framing is more precise. I often check my framing with live view before making the exposure, rather than relying on cropping in post-processing. But that's with landscape. For street photography and reportage live view probably is less important.

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Still trying to figure out how to do circle crops!

Make sure you only have the background layer.

Double click to make it a regular layer

Use the elliptical marquee tool to select your crop and hold shift whilst dragging to make a circle

Invert your selection

Hit delete

Save as .png to remove the background.

Edited by jaapv
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It just wasn't any fun and the images didn't have that special look.

This is my experience! I now own just a M. And It would be nice (fun) to own a MM. Due to finances I will probably never own one. The iPhone is eubiquitious in my family.... not fun, just handy. The M is a fine camera for BW and color - a pleasure to use. Go for a M, it will not let you down. Maybe, you could add a MM one day, for even more fun!

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I personally think that Leica's (and other manufacturers') CCD sensors are superior to their CMOS sensors in terms of IQ and overall "look." CCD sensors don't create "digital smearing," which seems to be ubiquitous with many CMOS sensors (including, especially, Leica's D-Lux-6) . In addition, colors are much more natural to me with CCD sensors. Personal taste, no doubt. Many prefer CMOS sensors to CCD (they do have advantages in terms of video capability and live view, which I don't need or use, and longer battery life).

To me, MM images are also quite different from M9 B+W conversions (although both have CCD sensors, of course).

If you shoot primarily or exclusively B+W and want full frame and tremendous dynamic range, go for the M. You won't be disappointed.

Rich

Edited by rcerick
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I think the M provides very good B&W pictures, and I'm sure as well it is sharp enough

 

Picture converted in Silver FX pro 2

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

100% Crop

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I think the M provides very good B&W pictures, and I'm sure as well it is sharp enough

Enrico - you have some very good BW images on your web-site!!

The other day I was comparing an MM and my M9 (converted to BW), handheld. I could not detect any relevant difference - comparing the images as A3+ prints from my Epson Pro 3880. The light situation on the two images is somewhat different (the blurred leaves on the tree in the foreground).

Are the differences MM - M)/M(240) only visible at higher ISOs?

 

/Anders

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The other day I was comparing an MM and my M9 (converted to BW), handheld. I could not detect any relevant difference

 

Try putting them on a tripod, 'handheld' is like comparing the handling of two different cars each running on a flat tyre.

 

 

Steve

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