Digital Leica Lifespan?

[Lacapino]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Good day to all on the forum

 

This Q , I m about to ask may have been presented before, or at least some would have pondered.

What is the life expectancy for/of a Leica M9?

Sensor life is what my question is mostly referring to/about.

I read here(on Forum) earlier about a photographer whose M9P had its sensor replaced, when he recently sent the camera for a checkup, this occurred within the warranty period. That`s after the fact, that the owner/photog did not even know there was a fault with it. He had sent the camera in for something else.

So what happens if your warranty period is now over. I believe its only a year fro the Camera Bodies? It is sure to be an astronomical fee?

 

I also wonder how often the rangefinder has to be calibrated on the digital M's?

Obviously then the cameras need to be sent to Germany?

This too, has me somewhat perplexed?

 

I m to decide within the next few days, about buying a Monochrome(will have to sell my M9, and a few other Nikon things) ... and my concern is related to the life span, and what I could look to get(years of Life) from this very expensive yet wonderful camera.

I cannot buy a Digital Leica every other year.

 

As my thinking stand at the moment( I m not sure, and cannot sleep ;() should I rather invest in the MP instead, for peace of mind,

Though the picture making process is then a much different process(to get to the print) etc ... There is obviously strong arguments for both trains of thought ...

 

I l appreciate any inputs, and shared knowledge

 

Kind Regards

Lacapino

[jaapv]

My 2004 Digilux2 is still going strong, so is my 2005 DMR, 2006 M8, etc. Sensors can and do fail, albeit rarely, Leica has been extremely accommodating, for instance the Digilux with a known problem still has the sensor replaced for free. I have not heard of a sensor that succumbed to old age.

 

As for RF adjustment, if subjected to a really hard knock or vibration it may go out kilter. Light aircraft can be particularly nasty in that respect.

I have used rangefinders for nearly forty years and have a dozen standing about right now, but I have never known one to go out of adjustment spontaneously.

As for the repair, there is absolutely no need to send cameras or lenses to Leica (they won't thank me for this:(). Any competent camera workshop can do it.

Once my M9 dropped from the car seat onto the concrete. knocking the vertical alignment way out of kilter. I drove to Will van Manen and had a glass of wine while he fixed it. 15 minutes, the rest of the time was camera and wine talk...

Oh- and there is absolutely no difference between digital and film Ms regarding the view/rangefinder. It is exactly the same design and they are exactly as robust or vulnerable.

 

Guaranty is two years and you can buy a year extension at a reasonable price.

Edited July 26, 2013 by jaapv

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[tobey bilek]

Leica cameras are engineered with old time German engineering. They are made usually with top line materials and skilled labor and there is absolutely no regard to service costs. BMW and Mercedes are the same.

 

The older film cameras worked for a very long time, up to a million exposures, if they were used frequently. If not they jammed up and required a CLA. Precision watches are much the same.

 

I buy a timex and it keeps better time than a Rollex, maintenance is $5 annually for a jeweler installed battery. A Rollex is hundreds for cla.

 

On the other hand, I never had to have a Nikon repaired. Certainly they are not perfect though.

 

So in my opinion you are buying a maintenance problem, but it is the best because there is no competition. If you want a RF, it is the way to go. If lenses required the same maintenance, I would dump Leica in a heartbeat.

 

Leica has image quality second to none. But does it matter with digital? Largely no. But you can not fix a soft 50 1.4 except using it at F2.8

[BerndReini]

I bought one of the first M9s and I have been using it a lot. I had a column calibration done in Germany once, which took four weeks. Meanwhile my original M8, which was also one of the first ones (first year of release with the 35% off a lens coupon) is currently working wonderfully for its third owner.

 

I have never had my rangefinder recalibrated and it is spot on.

[rramesh]

Life is short. Take lots of pictures.

[David K]

I'm new to Leica, but have had many years' experience with digital imaging chips as a professor of video production. Even with heavy student use (and abuse) most of our camcorder chips produced fine images for 10 years or more. Short of completely smashing the lens/chip assembly (which has happened when dropping a broadcast camcorder several feet onto concrete) I have never personally had an imaging chip fail. If it works out of the box, it should last longer than the mechanical components--even in a Leica.

[StephenPatterson]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

I think with the M9 it's safe to plan for 10-15 years, but I suspect they will still be going strong 20+ years from now. This is not a normal consumer electronics product, and Leica will work hard to make sure that they can service cameras into the future.

 

It isn't always possible for Leica to repair every fault, as with the M8's LCD screens no longer being available from the manufacturer, but sensors are still available and I imagine that there is still a sizable stockpile of spare parts at Leica. Of course in the future it's entirely possible that we will see cameras with cosmetic damage used to supply spare parts for others.

 

During WW2 when an aircraft would become so unserviceable that repair was no longer a feasible option it was turned into a "hanger queen" and gutted for parts. This strategy, I suspect, will keep M8s and M9s in the field for decades to come as specialty camera shops repair and rebuild digital Leica rangefinders long after their warranties have expired.

[marknorton]

RF adjustment is really about the only thing which a third party repairer can or ever will be able to tackle. Anything electronic is well-nigh impossible because of lack of technical information - which I doubt will ever be forthcoming from Leica - and a lack of parts. Even swapping parts from donor cameras is fraught with problems because of calibration procedures which only Leica has access to.

 

The rangefinder calibration is not a given. My early M9 is back with Leica and they have decided the sensor needs re-aligning as well and that procedure is beyond even Jaap's wine-enthusiast repairer.

[StephenPatterson]

RF adjustment is really about the only thing which a third party repairer can or ever will be able to tackle. Anything electronic is well-nigh impossible because of lack of technical information - which I doubt will ever be forthcoming from Leica - and a lack of parts. Even swapping parts from donor cameras is fraught with problems because of calibration procedures which only Leica has access to.

 

Nothing difficult about changing out switches, or the LCD, which are common points of failure. I would also not be surprised if Leica at some point down the road decided to sell or outsource the test/calibration/repair to a third party. Certainly this has happened in other industries where the OEM had a large amount of legacy product in the field that needed ongoing service and repair but the economics no longer justified doing so in house.

[elmars]

Leica says, that they repair a M camera mimimum 10 years after production end (exception: the M8 monitor).

 

Elmar

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2

[pico]

Leica cameras are engineered with old time German engineering.

 

Leica stopped hand-fitting camera body parts years ago. Rather than filing a part to fit, they dip into a bin to find one that fits as-is.

 

They have also cheapened the viewfinder and removed a condenser.

Edited July 26, 2013 by pico

[Dr Owl]

Hi Lacapino,

 

May I advance a theory? A superbly made mechanical camera lasts about 75 years; a superbly made electronic one should last at least 30.

 

The 75 years comes from observation of the “classic camera” world. Any regularly used camera will need occasional servicing ... but there comes a time when that need becomes too frequent for the camera to be suitable for regular use. There are still intermittent users of a Rolleiflex Standard Leverwind (I’m one) or of a Leica Model A; but a pre-War camera in regular use tends to be a Leica III or a Rolleiflex Automat; and a new classic-camera user would be wise to start with a Contax IIa, a Leica IIIc, or a Rolleiflex Automat X.

 

The 30 years comes from observing Nikon. The marketplace pressure of the late 1970s brought us a stream of lightweight electronic plastic cameras, which probably created the classic-camera world as a reaction, and which did have limited lifespans. The Nikon F3 of 1980 had to use electronics to be affordable, so Nikon had to convince sceptical photojournalists that an electronic shutter and an LCD could coexist with durability. They succeeded. Nikon F3s of the 1980s are still going strong.

 

Leica’s build quality is at least as good as Nikon’s, so I doubt whether you need to worry too much about the lifespan of a Monochrom.

 

Long before a superbly made camera becomes frail, it seems out-of-date; and the marketplace trumpets what seem to be improvements. A mechanical-Leica user could well have upgraded his or her IIIc to an M3, then to an M4 for ease of loading, and an MP for light-metering. Three upgrades in 60 years.

 

For a digital system camera, that seems to be more like one upgrade every 6 years ... or one every 3 years if you give way to marketing. Your resistance to marketing is likely to determine the lifespan limit on your Monochrom.

 

Later,

 

Dr Owl

[paulsydaus]

I suspect you are spot on!

 

 

Hi Lacapino,

 

May I advance a theory? A superbly made mechanical camera lasts about 75 years; a superbly made electronic one should last at least 30.

 

The 75 years comes from observation of the “classic camera” world. Any regularly used camera will need occasional servicing ... but there comes a time when that need becomes too frequent for the camera to be suitable for regular use. There are still intermittent users of a Rolleiflex Standard Leverwind (I’m one) or of a Leica Model A; but a pre-War camera in regular use tends to be a Leica III or a Rolleiflex Automat; and a new classic-camera user would be wise to start with a Contax IIa, a Leica IIIc, or a Rolleiflex Automat X.

 

The 30 years comes from observing Nikon. The marketplace pressure of the late 1970s brought us a stream of lightweight electronic plastic cameras, which probably created the classic-camera world as a reaction, and which did have limited lifespans. The Nikon F3 of 1980 had to use electronics to be affordable, so Nikon had to convince sceptical photojournalists that an electronic shutter and an LCD could coexist with durability. They succeeded. Nikon F3s of the 1980s are still going strong.

 

Leica’s build quality is at least as good as Nikon’s, so I doubt whether you need to worry too much about the lifespan of a Monochrom.

 

Long before a superbly made camera becomes frail, it seems out-of-date; and the marketplace trumpets what seem to be improvements. A mechanical-Leica user could well have upgraded his or her IIIc to an M3, then to an M4 for ease of loading, and an MP for light-metering. Three upgrades in 60 years.

 

For a digital system camera, that seems to be more like one upgrade every 6 years ... or one every 3 years if you give way to marketing. Your resistance to marketing is likely to determine the lifespan limit on your Monochrom.

 

Later,

 

Dr Owl

[DWatts]

Good day to all on the forum

 

This Q , I m about to ask may have been presented before, or at least some would have pondered.

What is the life expectancy for/of a Leica M9?

Sensor life is what my question is mostly referring to/about.

I read here(on Forum) earlier about a photographer whose M9P had its sensor replaced, when he recently sent the camera for a checkup, this occurred within the warranty period. That`s after the fact, that the owner/photog did not even know there was a fault with it. He had sent the camera in for something else.

So what happens if your warranty period is now over. I believe its only a year fro the Camera Bodies? It is sure to be an astronomical fee?

 

I also wonder how often the rangefinder has to be calibrated on the digital M's?

Obviously then the cameras need to be sent to Germany?

This too, has me somewhat perplexed?

 

I m to decide within the next few days, about buying a Monochrome(will have to sell my M9, and a few other Nikon things) ... and my concern is related to the life span, and what I could look to get(years of Life) from this very expensive yet wonderful camera.

I cannot buy a Digital Leica every other year.

 

As my thinking stand at the moment( I m not sure, and cannot sleep ;() should I rather invest in the MP instead, for peace of mind,

Though the picture making process is then a much different process(to get to the print) etc ... There is obviously strong arguments for both trains of thought ...

 

I l appreciate any inputs, and shared knowledge

 

Kind Regards

Lacapino

 

Hullo Lacapino,

I have no experience with the life span of an M9 but I do have experience of the lifespan of an M8. You may be surprised that it was two years and a few months. Then the rear LCD screen stopped showing anything, and when returned to Leica in Germany ,I was told that they did not have the parts to repair the camera. "So do you want your broken M8 back or do you want to pay 2700 euros for an M9"

I did not want an M9 but as I had a number of Leica lenses I had to give in to the 'gun held to my head'. Leica was quite distant in their dealing and most certainly had no customer interest except to sell another camera.

Yes I now have an M9 with two years guarantee, for what that is worth.

The final salt in the wound was that the battery charger received with the M9 was faulty and after much chasing had to be replaced.

Leica's past reputation was good - my experience is that current Leica management does not care.

David Watts,

CornwallU.K.

[fotografr]

My M8 has been going strong for 7 years without any kind of malfunction whatsoever and still produces images that I would consider superior. By today's standards the high ISO performance is sub par but it is still a great digital camera.

[}{B]

A point to bear in mind is that no matter what Leica say about how long they will repair cameras after production ceases this is dependent on the availability of parts.

 

As far as I am aware Leica do not manufacture the parts and as we found with the M8 should one part no longer be available from their suppliers then there is nothing Leica can do about it except offer an upgrade to the latest model at a discounted price.

[marknorton]

I agree. Leica Digital M cameras may well still be around in 30 years but what we can be certain of is that spare parts will not be. The Intel processor used in the M8 was end-of-life before the camera came out. Will replacement sensors be available? Hardly, and any stockpiled will likely have deteriorated in that time.

 

In the end, cameras developing faults will be beyond economic repair. The cost of repair will be more than the camera is then worth.

 

I work on the basis that the cameras will be maintainable for 10 years and write the cost off on that basis.

 

I spoke last year to the man who runs Mercedes-Benz Classic Restoration. Currently, they can remake any part they need, at a cost, even if it means machining it from solid. His remit does not yet include cars which use electronics in any significant way but his view is that lack of electronic parts will be the reason modern cars which are fine mechanically will now reach the end of their lives.

[jaapv]

Leica stopped hand-fitting camera body parts years ago. Rather than filing a part to fit, they dip into a bin to find one that fits as-is.

 

They have also cheapened the viewfinder and removed a condenser.

You are still smarting about the M6 TTL? Man, can you hold a grudge....

[lm_user]

I agree. Leica Digital M cameras may well still be around in 30 years but what we can be certain of is that spare parts will not be. The Intel processor used in the M8 was end-of-life before the camera came out. Will replacement sensors be available? Hardly, and any stockpiled will likely have deteriorated in that time.

 

In the end, cameras developing faults will be beyond economic repair. The cost of repair will be more than the camera is then worth.

 

I work on the basis that the cameras will be maintainable for 10 years and write the cost off on that basis.

 

I spoke last year to the man who runs Mercedes-Benz Classic Restoration. Currently, they can remake any part they need, at a cost, even if it means machining it from solid. His remit does not yet include cars which use electronics in any significant way but his view is that lack of electronic parts will be the reason modern cars which are fine mechanically will now reach the end of their lives.

 

Cars will be much easier to work around old electronics - Aftermarket systems exist to control the engines. Carburetors can be adapted to engines. Working around the electronics of a digital M will be much more difficult

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[jaapv]

Ummm...even if this would work, it would make them illegal to run.