Dead pixel? on a week old Leica M

[christianpsu]

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So.... i only got the Leica M 240 a week ago and after i took it to a trip to Korea, I find this line going across the images. So I thought it was memory card. Swapped it for a new one. Same problem. Now I thought it was the actual LCD monitor that was the problem. Nope. When I was in LiveView, the line isn't there. Weird. So now it's getting shipped to Solms (teardrop) and have to wait for 6-8 weeks. The reason why I am posting this is because I couldn't find other Leica M owners who had this problem (yes, with other models but not for the new M). Please share your pain with me here if you have the same problem as me.

 

http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p729/christianpsu/1_zpsbfb2500d.jpg

[Berlinman]

I have the same problem. Approx 5% of the pictures have a complete black column.

I sent the camera to Leica and they said it was a hot pixel and they fixed it by software.

Unfortunately it is not fixed and now it is a second time in Solms.

Please give me an info what happend with Your problem.

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[jaapv]

Well, there are dozens of threads on the subject here and in other camera forums and plenty of scientific -and less scientific - papers on the Internet. A dead pixel is a pure matter of chance, as it is caused by cosmic radiation. As the sensor s read out in columns it can show up as a line. A sensor is more at risk during flights, especially transpolar ones, due to the higher intensity of the radiation. Sony is said to ship their cameras by land/sea for this reason.

Leica had a warning in the M8 and M9 manuals. I have not checked, but it is probably still there in the M manual.

 

The only risk-reducing strategy I have come up with is target reduction, i.e. store the camera with the sensor vertical during flight. It is no scientific proof, but I have never had a dead pixel since I went digital in 1998. despite quite an amount of accumulated flying time -touch wood.

 

Any camera grade sensor has dead pixels from new and they are mapped out (i.e. assigned a value based on the neighbouring pixels) before the camera is shipped.

 

Once a dead pixel appears on the sensor during use it must be remapped. Some cameras have a sensor remapping feature in the firmware, but Leica prefers to do the routine in the factory. There is a maximum number of pixels that can be mapped out and when that tolerance is exceeded the sensor will be replaced.

 

All in all a nuisance but a fact of digital life.

Edited July 31, 2013 by jaapv

[dcsang]

While what Jaap says may be true (I haven't a clue really, I'm not an engineer nor do I know exactly what causes dead pixels, a single one or a full row of them) I have experience with this phenomenon from a brand new Leica M8. This, below, is just my opinion on that specific issue.

 

I thought by now, Leica may have been able to avoid, or at least adjust, for such an issue but if it really is caused by cosmic radiation I gotta scratch my head. I can honestly say, out of all the digital cameras I have owned, from 1998 to present, Leica is the only camera I've had that actually had a dead pixel (single or row) right out of the box or otherwise. I've owned Kodaks (DC120), Canons (S10, G1, 10D, 20D, 5D), Fujis (F31, X10, X-Pro1), Panasonic (LX-3) and Nikons (CoolpixA, D700s). The Canon 5D/20D, Fuji F31, X-Pro1, Panasonic LX-3 and Nikons have all gone on vacation with me at some point; all traveling by air from Toronto to Brazil, France, Australia, USA (a number of cities) and across Canada. With all that traveling and all the cosmic radiation I must have experienced I have never had a dead pixel or row of dead pixels on any of those cameras. Only Leica and only a brand new Leica at that. Odd I guess. Maybe the randomness for me only applies to Leica.

 

Granted, Leica fixed it (after 4 weeks over in Solms) and the camera performed well on my trip to Australia. I can't fault them for that.

 

I will always give Leica props where its due - great lenses, awesome rangefinder manual film cameras, really really good autoexposure rangefinder film cameras, and ridiculously good build quality on those items. I still have to be convinced that I can give them props for a digital camera.

 

I believe, Christian, once you get the camera fixed (sensor remapped or replaced) by Leica it will perform as it should for hopefully a long time to come!

 

Cheers,

Dave

[jaapv]

Some links regarding cosmic radiation and sensors.

 

http://www.jai.com/SiteCollectionDocuments/Camera_Solutions_Application_Tech_Note/TechNote-TH-1087-CosmicRays.pdf

 

http://www.harvestimaging.com/pubdocs/090_2005_dec_IEDM_terrestrial_cosmic_rays.pdf

 

http://www.issibern.ch/forads/sr-009-23.pdf (scroll down for the differences between CCD and CMOS (pp 407-408)

Edited August 1, 2013 by jaapv

[CalArts 99]

I will always give Leica props where its due - great lenses, awesome rangefinder manual film cameras, really really good autoexposure rangefinder film cameras, and ridiculously good build quality on those items. I still have to be convinced that I can give them props for a digital camera.

 

My sentiments, too.

 

After a short relationship with the M9, I'm sticking just to film Leica Ms (and Leica lenses, of course.) imho, there are other viable choices for digital imaging.

[250swb]

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We need to get things into perspective,......

 

........ and remember that for maybe a decade now a 'lowly' Olympus 4/3 or m4/3 camera has the ability to pixel map from its menu, and remove these problems immediately. Just a thought if anybody from Leica bothers to look in.

 

Steve

[earleygallery]

Funny how digital suffers from most of the same issues as film despite being completely different.

 

Dust on negs = dust on sensor

 

Fast film grain = high ISO noise

 

Airport xrays = cosmic radiation

 

It's fact guys get over it.

[CalArts 99]

It's fact guys get over it.

 

imho, it's not about 'getting over' anything. It's more about Leica executing great designs and excellent mechanical hardware but always seeming to be stumbling somewhat when it comes to electronics.

 

Hey, we're in the 'digital age' and electronics are central. I think I'd prefer a German designed and built rangefinder and superb optics but with Japanese guts inside.

[sanyasi]

Sorry to hear about your troubles. Whatever the fault, I can understand your frustration.

 

Jack Siegel

[JDP]

I had the very same issue with my new M, again a few days after taking delivery of it, albeit the DNG file didn't show such a drastic 'deadline', but rather a single row vertically with a fainter horizontal row crossing it. It was not as pronounced as what your sample image shows when seen on screen or in print, but very visible when using the LV or EVF, manifesting itself as a glowing red line vertically, presumably as a result of the peaking spotting the high contrast.

 

Anyway, morale of the story, I spoke with my Leica dealer in London, who within the hour had Leica ship a brand new M out to them for collection later the following week. There was no question of 'you'll have to return it to Solms while you age slowly looking at your lovely Leica glass', just good old fashion quality service, and the reason I return to my dealer time and again when I need anything Leica.

 

It's a faulty product, and they SHOULD and CAN give you a new piece ASAP. This drip feeding of supply, albeit perhaps necessary to a minor degree due to some unforeseen manufacturing issues, appears a pretty transparent attempt to manipulate the market, many of whom have been Leica customers for decades.

 

I do love using my Leica, and the M is a much more capable tool than the M9, but I'm in no way married to the system, it is after all just a tool. They should put their house in order and start treating customers with the respect their hard earned money spent on these products deserves.

 

OP, hope you get things sorted soon, for a 'flawless' M is really something special, despite what many detractors are saying.

Edited August 2, 2013 by JDP

[earleygallery]

Hey, we're in the 'digital age' and electronics are central. I think I'd prefer a German designed and built rangefinder and superb optics but with Japanese guts inside.

 

True. On a camera like the M they really should include the function to remap the sensor in camera.

[Daniel Beacock]

What's the prognosis if the fault appears to be intermittent? I've just looked through some files from yesterday and have been shocked to see the same thing, single vertical line. Started late afternoon, early evening.

 

Just tried a few shots today, no sign of it at all. Tried replicating settings, lenses, used the same card, all files were perfect. Any ideas??

[Guest WPalank]

What's the prognosis if the fault appears to be intermittent? I've just looked through some files from yesterday and have been shocked to see the same thing, single vertical line. Started late afternoon, early evening.

 

Just tried a few shots today, no sign of it at all. Tried replicating settings, lenses, used the same card, all files were perfect. Any ideas??

 

In LR or ACR. Start playing with the sliders and pushing them to the extremes. Try to make an HDR looking image. the problem is typically visible then.

[Daniel Beacock]

In LR or ACR. Start playing with the sliders and pushing them to the extremes. Try to make an HDR looking image. the problem is typically visible then.

 

Yes, tried that, still no sign. The line on yesterday's files were very visible as well, no need to tweak at all you could see it straight from the DNG's on the computer screen. Bit worrying that one minute it's there, next it vanishes. It was after prolonged use at the tail end of the day, that's the only difference I can work out. I'll just have to keep an eye out for it occurring again. Very odd.

[Guest WPalank]

Yes, tried that, still no sign. The line on yesterday's files were very visible as well, no need to tweak at all you could see it straight from the DNG's on the computer screen. Bit worrying that one minute it's there, next it vanishes. It was after prolonged use at the tail end of the day, that's the only difference I can work out. I'll just have to keep an eye out for it occurring again. Very odd.

 

Mind posting 2 picks, jpeg obviously.

One that shows the location of line. The other maybe 600 iso or more that does not seem to show the problem?

[trond]

So.... i only got the Leica M 240 a week ago and after i took it to a trip to Korea, I find this line going across the images. So I thought it was memory card. Swapped it for a new one. Same problem. Now I thought it was the actual LCD monitor that was the problem. Nope. When I was in LiveView, the line isn't there. Weird. So now it's getting shipped to Solms (teardrop) and have to wait for 6-8 weeks. The reason why I am posting this is because I couldn't find other Leica M owners who had this problem (yes, with other models but not for the new M). Please share your pain with me here if you have the same problem as me.

 

http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p729/christianpsu/1_zpsbfb2500d.jpg

 

Dear Christianpsu,

 

This is the reality in digital imaging sensors, Leica and all others.

 

This is an economic question, and a defect free sensor is not a commersial product, but is enjoyed by military and space customer, at an similarly astronomic price.

 

The spec of the M8 (check the Kodak datasheet for the KAF-10500 sensor ) allows for 2500 pixel defects, but less than 30 in a cluster, but up to 10 dead columns.

 

Trade spec on full format is less than 10 defect columns for full (24X36) format, and less than 20 columns in medium format.

 

It seldom gets that bad, but you cannot complain if you get a camera with that many defects.

 

This is standard consumer grade, and the same for Canon, Nikon and others.

 

My M9P has three dead columns, my M M had two completely dead columns, so had my M type 240. My Phase One IQ180 digital back has one half dead column, and several clusters of dead pixels.

 

My Canon 5D2 and Nikon D800E has no dead columns, but scattered dead pixel clusters all over the place.

 

I complained to Leica on the three dead columns on my M9P, but they claim that the sensor is within spec.

 

This is just how the state is in 2013, no (almost) sensors are perfect, this is the reality in microelectronics manufacturing.

 

I am and IC designer, and have worked on image sensors, this is just the reality, ant not a big problem for image quality as these defects are efecctively mapped out.

 

The only occasion when these defects are visible are with motifs with repetitive patterns, like roof tiles or building facades with window blinds etc.

 

One very easy way to identify these defects is to take your sharpest lens APO75, APO50 or SX50 etc at f8, and take a photo of a 24 inch computer monitor in focus at a distance of approx 70cm - 1 meter, of an all white image.

 

This will give an image at approx 1/4-1/8 the Nyquist frequency of the sensor, and every known defect correction will go absolutely haywire, and you will immedeately see the dead columns and clusters.

 

Best regards

 

Trond

[bocaburger]

Ok I accept that cosmic radiation kills pixels. I currently have two original 5Ds from 2005 that have flown with me on more transcontinental flights than I can even begin to recall. No lines of dead pixels. Ditto my M9 and the M8 before it. So how is it a nearly-new M240 that flew once or twice would have a line of dead pixels attributable to cosmic radiation?

[pico]

I matters NOT what caused the dead pixel line. What does matter is that Leica has not provided what other makers have - the ability to patch (deassign) that row on our own. I do not believe the problem was caused by cosmic rays. Calculate the chances of that. Unbelievable.

 

Another good reason for Leica to make their firmware better, AND open source. WTF are they thinking?

 

bocaburger: Ok I accept that cosmic radiation kills pixels.

 

Don't accept it. It can but it is hugely unlikely.

 

And trond - you are so full of sycophantic excuses it is embarrassing.

Edited August 10, 2013 by pico

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[Daniel Beacock]

Mind posting 2 picks, jpeg obviously.

One that shows the location of line. The other maybe 600 iso or more that does not seem to show the problem?

 

William, I tried to post the full image, but with the size rules there was no way you can see the line when you zoom in, it is simply too pixelated to be defined at all. So here are two crops. Looking at it closer in this image now I realise it's not a continuous line, it does appear to be broken, particularly in lighter areas. Again, today the camera is absolutely fine, still no further sign of the problem. In these crops the line should be evident roughly in the centre, on the full image the lines appeared pretty much at the beginning of the last third of the width of the image.

 

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