Leica M Video Capability

[Guest redge]

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I placed an order for an M several months ago with the intention of using it to make videos as well as photographs.

 

To my surprise, Leica does not appear to have arranged for the production of any short vudeos demonstrating what the camera is capable of. To date, there is very little in the way of credible evaluation on the internet and little in the way of clips.

 

Are any of the participants in this forum exploring the camera's video performance in a serious way? If so, I'd be very interested in your thoughts. I am of course aware of the absence of an HDMI connection, but I think that I can work with that; and microphone issues don't concern me because my intention is to record dual system sound.

 

Basically, I'm trying to decide whether to continue waiting for an M or just buy a Nikon D800.

The Leica remains my preferred option IF the image quality stands up to that of the better DSLRs.

 

Thanks

[Guest borge]

If your primary use is video then forget about the M240 and get a 5D Mark III and some nice manual Zeiss lenses.

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[Guest redge]

If your primary use is video then forget about the M240 and get a 5D Mark III and some nice manual Zeiss lenses.

 

Thanks borge, but I'm hoping to get comments from people who own an M and shoot video. Based on your website and posts, it appears that neither applies to you.

 

I am well aware of what my non-Leica options are, and in my case the alternative is a Nikon D800. To elaborate on my earlier post, with either camera sound will be dual system with a Sound Devices recorder and Schoeps mics, which is why I don't care about sound/microphone issues. I am interested in hands-on experience with M video images.

 

Cheers

Edited April 24, 2013 by redge

[Guest borge]

Thanks borge, but I'm hoping to get comments from people who own an M and shoot video. Based on your website and posts, it appears that neither applies to you.

 

I am well aware of what my non-Leica options are, and in my case the alternative is a Nikon D800. To elaborate on my earlier post, with either camera sound will be dual system with a Sound Devices recorder and Schoeps mics, which is why I don't care about sound/microphone issues. I am interested in hands-on experience with M video images.

 

Cheers

 

Thorsten Overgaard has some posts on his website about video recording with the M.

 

Part 1: leica.overgaard.dk - Thorsten Overgaard's Leica Pages - Page 35 - Leica M Digital Rangefinder Camera Page - Video- & Moviemaking with the Leica M video - Part 1

Part 2: leica.overgaard.dk - Thorsten Overgaard's Leica Pages - Page 36 - Leica M Digital Rangefinder Camera Page - Video- & Moviemaking with the Leica M video - Part 2

 

That's worth checking out.

I can't recall anyone else posting much about it.

[Guest redge]

Thorsten Overgaard has some posts on his website about video recording with the M.

 

Part 1: leica.overgaard.dk - Thorsten Overgaard's Leica Pages - Page 35 - Leica M Digital Rangefinder Camera Page - Video- & Moviemaking with the Leica M video - Part 1

Part 2: leica.overgaard.dk - Thorsten Overgaard's Leica Pages - Page 36 - Leica M Digital Rangefinder Camera Page - Video- & Moviemaking with the Leica M video - Part 2

 

That's worth checking out.

I can't recall anyone else posting much about it.

 

Yes, he does. Those posts are part of why I said that there is a paucity of credible comment about the camera's video performance on the internet. His attempt at evaluation is comic, perhaps unsurprising given his own statement that he not only doesn't make videos, but "hates" video. And his attempt to "fix" his initial post by bringing in a videographer for a few hours (literally) didn't exactly make that evaluation less comic.

Edited April 24, 2013 by redge

[digitalfx]

I am a film producer, Ive owned Leica M's since I was 17 years old.

I shoot digital with a combination of Red Epic's, 5D's, Alexa and Sony cameras on a daily basis.

 

To answer your question directly. The M(240)'s video capabilities are lacking in too many areas to consider it a serious tool. The 5DIII, although also lacking in many areas is vastly superior to the M for video.

 

That being said, the video functions are welcome, and I will use them. But if you are considering the camera for video the short answer is dont do it. It seems to me that video was an afterthought on this camera. It has the potential to produce great video, but several key omissions severely handicap the camera for professional use.

 

I will shoot video with the M, it just wont be my first choice. (or second choice)

Edited April 24, 2013 by digitalfx

[Guest redge]

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I am a film producer, Ive owned Leica M's since I was 17 years old.

I shoot digital with a combination of Red Epic's, 5D's, Alexa and Sony cameras on a daily basis.

 

To answer your question directly. The M(240)'s video capabilities are lacking in too many areas to consider it a serious tool. The 5DIII, although also lacking in many areas is vastly superior to the M for video.

 

That being said, the video functions are welcome, and I will use them. But if you are considering the camera for video the short answer is dont do it. It seems to me that video was an afterthought on this camera. It has the potential to produce great video, but several key omissions severely handicap the camera for professional use.

 

I will shoot video with the M, it just wont be my first choice. (or second choice)

 

Thanks for the response, especially since you have one of the new Ms and shoot video. What do you consider to be the "key omissions", and why do you think it has "the potential to produce great video"?

 

Your post led me to this thread, in which you say that the main problem is that the camera can't "record with a flat look": http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m9-forum/279950-video-thoughts.html Could you elaborate on what you mean by that?

 

For context, I have an Aaton Super 16 but I have a project in mind for which film stock is uneconomic. Lots of time, controlled shots, no run and gun and no fast lateral movements. I'm interested in the M for still photography reasons (I use an M3 and an M6 and have a fair number of lenses), and this would be my first digital Leica (I passed on the M9 for ISO reasons). I need to know what the video performance is, pro and con.

 

Thanks

Edited April 24, 2013 by redge

[digitalfx]

With the 5D at I can set a flat look in the preset so that I can at least minimally color correct the footage in post. With the M, I'm limited to the 4 presets Leica offers. Look at this:

Prolost - Blog - Prolost

 

The other issues with the M:

1- severe rolling shutter, far worse than even the 5D. Which means handheld operation is very limited

2- no monitor out

3- Sound is limited to a hot shoe device which eliminates the EVF, a crucial tool for cinematography

 

Can I get great results with the M? Absolutely...but its not an ideal camera for this type of work.

[Guest redge]

With the 5D at I can set a flat look in the preset so that I can at least minimally color correct the footage in post. With the M, I'm limited to the 4 presets Leica offers. Look at this:

Prolost - Blog - Prolost

 

The other issues with the M:

1- severe rolling shutter, far worse than even the 5D. Which means handheld operation is very limited

2- no monitor out

3- Sound is limited to a hot shoe device which eliminates the EVF, a crucial tool for cinematography

 

Can I get great results with the M? Absolutely...but its not an ideal camera for this type of work.

 

Thanks again.

 

The colour correction issue is important and I'm about to read the post to which you refer.

 

In my earlier posts, I said that I'm not concerned about monitor out and that I intend to record sound independently with a Sound Devices recorder/Schoeps mics. I'll use a dumb slate, so I don't need an in-camera guide track.

 

I'll be using the camera on a tripod, no handheld, no run and gun.

 

With those provisos, and if you've worked with the video function, what's your view? I'd especially like to know what you think of the image quality vis a vis other digital cameras that you have used. If you haven't had a chance to test it, that's cool, just thought that I'd ask the question.

 

I should add that I really appreciate your responses.

 

Cheers

Edited April 24, 2013 by redge

[Jeffry Abt]

What you mean by "use a dumb slate" ?

[Guest redge]

What you mean by "use a dumb slate" ?

 

I mean a traditional slate/clapper board as distinct from a slate that shows time code and is electronically synchronized with the camera and sound recorder. None of the DSLR cameras handle time code or, more correctly, SMPTE time code, so time code slates won't work with them.

 

That's why people shooting video on DSLRs, if they don't want to use the junk sound that the camera records, often record a sound track in the camera anyway as a guide track so that they can use Plural Eyes to sync the video and sound.

 

The alternative is to use a dumb slate and sync the old fashioned way. Which works just fine and avoids the problems that can arise using Plural Eyes.

 

This assumes that the crew is willing to slate at the beginning or end of a shot, the latter being a tail slate commonly used in documentary film production. If they aren't, which is frequently the case with run and gun video, a guide track is the way to go. But I'm not interested in that approach, so a traditional slate, now known as a dumb slate, will work fine for me.

Edited April 24, 2013 by redge

[Sully]

We just shot a test with a Canon 5dmkII (100mm macro IS, 2.8), Panasonic GH3 (Leica 50mm Summilux), and Leica M240 (90mm Apo Summicron). We set the cameras to flat settings for contrast, saturation, and sharpness..... ISO 800, F. 4, and 1080 24p. We were able to color grade (DaVinci software) all the clips to look about the same, which was very good.

 

All these DSLRs look about the same as far as rolling shutter, moire, and shadow noise go. We use Elexa, Red, Sony F5 for serious work, but for run of the mill (which is most of the work for the web, commercial training, or reality T.V.) all the DSLRs look just fine.... in other words indistinguishable from each other.

 

The only thing that makes the M240 difficult to use is the lack of an HDMI output. The image quality with Leica R and M lenses from the M240 is fine... totally useable for us. Sound is not an issue because we always use double system (Zaxcom or Sound Device). Only the Panasonic GH3 and the Leica M240 offer eye level EVFs. The Leica is the only one with EVF and large chip. The Panasonic has a M43 chip, but it has a faster codec (50 to 70 mg per/sec).

We are using all of these cameras in our workflow with Leica lenses. Using the R lenses are easier to focus because of the large focus roll, but the M lenses are so small and sharp that we are trying to learn how to use them. Carrying an M240 with a Summicron 35 under your coat all the time is really easy.

 

Ciao, Sully

[digitalfx]

Thanks for the response, especially since you have one of the new Ms and shoot video. What do you consider to be the "key omissions", and why do you think it has "the potential to produce great video"?

 

Your post led me to this thread, in which you say that the main problem is that the camera can't "record with a flat look": http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m9-forum/279950-video-thoughts.html Could you elaborate on what you mean by that?

 

For context, I have an Aaton Super 16 but I have a project in mind for which film stock is uneconomic. Lots of time, controlled shots, no run and gun and no fast lateral movements. I'm interested in the M for still photography reasons (I use an M3 and an M6 and have a fair number of lenses), and this would be my first digital Leica (I passed on the M9 for ISO reasons). I need to know what the video performance is, pro and con.

 

Thanks

 

Under these conditions you will be fine.

[mabbo]

We just shot a test with a Canon 5dmkII (100mm macro IS, 2.8), Panasonic GH3 (Leica 50mm Summilux), and Leica M240 (90mm Apo Summicron). We set the cameras to flat settings for contrast, saturation, and sharpness..... ISO 800, F. 4, and 1080 24p. We were able to color grade (DaVinci software) all the clips to look about the same, which was very good.

 

Sully, I just picked up a GH3 (waiting for the M) and I too was really impressed with the output when combined with Leica glass, in particular the 50mm 'Lux. Sharp and with the equivalent 100mm focal length you get nice narrow DOF and gorgeous bokeh.

 

Going back to the topic as hand, I'm glad to hear the M240 footage was seamlessly added to your existing workflow. I'm currently using Canon DSLRs (and now the GH3) as well.

 

Redge, it seems the general consensus is that the M240 would not be the best option as being your only and/or main camera but can readily supplement an existing system (after the necessary post work).

[Sully]

We love the GH2/3. Both the D5mk11/111 and the Panny work well for us.

However, you could use the M240 for your own personal work. The picture coming out of it is very good. It's only when you get into productions where the director wants to see what the DP sees..... that's when the problem begins. Without a signal output to an external monitor, the M240 won't work. I have given an Olympus EVF to a video engineer friend who is trying to get a signal out of it into some monitor. I will report back on success or failure.

 

Ciao, Sully

[jmahto]

Can someone reply why rolling shutter is a killer? It can be corrected in post processing (I have used only iMovie). Then what is the issue?

 

Let me add that I know next to nothing about digital video recording and movie making. I have a M9 and I am waiting and watching the discussions on M 240 to makeup my mind on upgrade.

[Guest redge]

Can someone reply why rolling shutter is a killer? It can be corrected in post processing (I have used only iMovie). Then what is the issue?

 

If I can add to your question, I'm curious to know why distortion resulting from the CMOS sensor/rolling shutter on the M would be "far worse" than on the Canon 5D, what "far worse" means and whether this is seen as a hardware or firmware issue.

 

I guess my general perspective on hybrid cameras is to either accept and work within their limitations or use a dedicated motion picture camera. The solution to distortion caused by a rolling shutter is to plan one's shots so that it isn't an issue in the first place.

 

On issues specific to the M:

 

Nobody who cares about sound will use the microphone in the camera, or a microphone mounted on the camera, to record anything other than a guide track, which itself has limitations. Given the choice between a useful electronic viewfinder and junk sound from an on-board microphone, the choice seems pretty clear, and synchronization of picture and sound can be achieved as easily, and in some cases more easily, with a head or tail slate.

 

The absence of an HDMI connection means no external monitor which means no video village, i.e. groups of people staring at the monitor so that they can second-guess the cameraman in real time. Some people might consider the absence of an external monitor a positive advantage There's a documentary film maker called Frederick Wiseman whose filmmaking process is that he records the sound and his cameraman records the picture. Given Wiseman's reputation as one of the world's finest documentary film makers, it appears that this can work just fine. And somehow, a lot of great feature films have been made without an external monitor.

 

That said, I think it's interesting that Sully is pursuing the idea of connecting an external monitor to the M and I look forward to the result.

 

To me, the bigger issue, which applies to all of these cameras if one is using unmodified still photography lenses, is learning to control focus.

 

Quick question for Sully ... apparently the Panasonic GH3 four thirds camera accepts SMPTE time code. Have you tried using it and, if so, what are your impressions on accuracy/drift?

Edited April 26, 2013 by redge

[Lax Jought]

I was disappointed to hear that rolling shutter is an issue. The information from Leica pre-release was that they were taking the video function seriously for filmmakers, what with 4:2:2.

 

Disappointed also that the 'flat' settings aren't an option.

 

These are fixable via firmware updates though, aren't they? More or less?

 

Not having HDMI-out is not an issue for me.

 

Sound isn't an issue as well, I have external recorders and mics for that.

[Rick]

I was disappointed to hear that rolling shutter is an issue. The information from Leica pre-release was that they were taking the video function seriously for filmmakers, what with 4:2:2.

 

Disappointed also that the 'flat' settings aren't an option.

 

These are fixable via firmware updates though, aren't they? More or less?

 

Not having HDMI-out is not an issue for me.

 

Sound isn't an issue as well, I have external recorders and mics for that.

 

Rolling shutter seems about the same as the 5DII.

 

I understand that flat settings are important for various reasons pertaining to post, but how do you know that OFF/STANDARD/STANDARD/OFF is not "flat?"

 

Does anybody actually know what the bit rate is? - Not what Leica reports, but what software is reporting it as. The big screen output seems soft to me and it very well could be I haven't figured out how to render a high bit rate file yet.

 

Dislaimer: I haven't been asked to join the ASC, yet.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Guest redge]

Dislaimer: I haven't been asked to join the ASC, yet.