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Leica's still the benchmark


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Leica's still the benchmark it seems.

 

Tidbits from DP Review's RX1 review:

 

Sony Cyber-shot DSC-RX1 Review: Digital Photography Review

 

... if image quality is paramount for you, there's nothing that comes close in such a small package this side of a Leica and its small-car price tag.

 

At the start of this review we asked if the RX1 was a good enough camera to play in the same league as Leica. The answer is yes.

 

Yes, but fixed lens.

 

A non-fixed version, however, is just a matter of time.

 

Let's hope Leica is planning for this.

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Leica's still the benchmark it seems.

 

Tidbits from DP Review's RX1 review:

 

Yes, but fixed lens.

 

A non-fixed version, however, is just a matter of time.

 

Let's hope Leica is planning for this.

 

HI Daniel

I think the point is still the same - if Sony produce a full frame mirrorless with an EVF, that's just what it will be (just like the M CAN be).

 

What it won't be is a rangefinder camera - which the M is as well.

 

It seems to me that the reason for buying an M is because you want a rangefinder camera - all the rest of the new features make the decision easier.

If you don't want a rangefinder, then the M is never going to be the right solution for you, and if you do, then the Sony will never be the right solution.

 

all the best

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Not sure if I agree with you on this one Jono.

 

Say Leica would offer an M rangfinder and an EVF version with focus peaking and all the bells and whistles.

 

The latter might even sell better.

 

I think Jono's exactly spot on. Leica's new M does have an EVF option and that's all they will need. Future iterations are likely to improve such as better EVF performance but every time there's a new mirrorless camera that looks or acts somewhat like a Leica everyone says it's a Leica killer. Fact is that even with all of this, including the RX1, Leica won't be able to produce enough of the new M's to satisfy demand.

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Remember Leica managers recently stating desire to capture 1% of the camera market?

 

The way I see market share increase happening is by combining Leica brand and CMOS/EVF/Liveview technology, for original audiance occupying =>0.25% of the market M(240) is fitted with RF.

 

Personally i love my M9P and ability to shoot 21-35-50mm lenses with RF, for longer focal lengths, like M 90mm and R up to 280mm, I couldn't care less what brand camera body is providing it is full frame and provides reliable focusing.

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Any EVF camera is inferior when it competes against Leica's bright OVF.

This camera is not cheap either at 2800$ and that without the announced electronic VF. Add another EVF for 450$ or OVF for 600$, because I cannot imagine professional use of the camera using its LCD rear screen for composing...

Then you have a camera that is a bit heavy at half a kilo, but with very small grip surfaces. Is also slim.

How much more will one pay for a mint second hand M9 with Lens?

This Sony, reminds me of a full frame X2

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Leica can never compete with Sony for the popular market, nor should they. Leica is too small to undercut Sony in price. If anything they have to make sure they don't do that and keep their appeal as a luxury brand with "attainable" cameras like the Dlux and X-series.

 

Leica is a manufacturer of optics, not electronics and they need to stick to what they do best.

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But more to the point, what nobody really seems to believe is that most Leica users use Leicas because they like the optical-mechanical rangefinder.

I've never figured this out either. Its fundamentally the reason why I enjoy using Leica M cameras.

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The advantages of the Leica M are both their rangefinder and their compactness. It seems that many tend to forget that the Leica form factor is still the smallest FF camera in the world. This is an achievement on it's own that still holds.

Some say Leica should never compete with Sony. Compete what? With an electronics giant that makes TV sets? As far as I can recall, Sony only recently entered the high end camera market. Compare this to 100years of legacy? It's the other way around me thinks.

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What IS that thing, the RX? Yet another feature laden P&S 'zombie' model. The lack of a viewfinder is a complete deal breaker for me with any serious camera. And no, I don't want one to fit to the hotshoe.

 

The RX1 is a FF PAS that has a sensor that is better than the M9 and most likely better than the M. Right now, it is capable of producing an image much better than the M9 + 35 lux. The RX1 in most ways will produce an image with better over all sharpness across the entire FOV than the D800e when comparing at 35mm, mainly because there doesn't exist a lens for the D800 that is as good as the Sony/Zeiss35 on the RX1. Right now the RX1is arguably the best FF camera on the market considering only what it can do (FF 35mm lens at f2.0 etc...). I don't think anything beats its image quality at 35mm at any ISO right now.

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What IS that thing, the RX? Yet another feature laden P&S 'zombie' model. The lack of a viewfinder is a complete deal breaker for me with any serious camera. And no, I don't want one to fit to the hotshoe.

I agree. I can deal with no viewfinder on a cheap point & shoot, but not at the price level of this Sony. I prefer the concept of the Fuji X series cameras, all of which have a built-in viewfinder, either electronic or hybrid electronic/optical. No doubt the full-frame Sony offers excellent image quality, but having a viewfinder is more appealing to me than framing with the rear LCD. I don't want to fit one in the hotshoe either.

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I agree. I can deal with no viewfinder on a cheap point & shoot, but not at the price level of this Sony. I prefer the concept of the Fuji X series cameras, all of which have a built-in viewfinder, either electronic or hybrid electronic/optical. No doubt the full-frame Sony offers excellent image quality, but having a viewfinder is more appealing to me than framing with the rear LCD.

 

 

FWIW, the RX1 does have a fantastic hotshoe EVF option, but, having owned several NEX and Fuji X cameras, neither has the same working style of an M, which is kind of the whole point, for me.

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The RX1 is a FF PAS that has a sensor that is better than the M9 and most likely better than the M. Right now, it is capable of producing an image much better than the M9 + 35 lux. The RX1 in most ways will produce an image with better over all sharpness across the entire FOV than the D800e when comparing at 35mm, mainly because there doesn't exist a lens for the D800 that is as good as the Sony/Zeiss35 on the RX1. Right now the RX1is arguably the best FF camera on the market considering only what it can do (FF 35mm lens at f2.0 etc...). I don't think anything beats its image quality at 35mm at any ISO right now.

 

Actually a D800e with a Zeiss ZF.2 35mm f/2 will beat it handily, in terms of what you are looking at with specs.

 

"producing a image much better" is highly subjective. I have an M9 and a D800E. I use only a 21mm Zeiss and a 200mm f/2 on my Nikon as those are the only two lenses I have found to be better than what I could get on my M9. Increased dynamic range and such doesn't mean "better image." There are times when I've adjusted in post the dynamic range as it seemed a bit too HDR like from the D800E. I think it's a silly trap to fall into to think that the newer cameras will get you a "better image." In fact, I think that some of the qualities of the M9 in terms of IQ are a result of the sensor differences.

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But more to the point, what nobody really seems to believe is that most Leica users use Leicas because they like the optical-mechanical rangefinder.

 

So true.... if Zeiss would through a digital Ikon Rangefinder on the market, it would be awesome!

But the market is just too small to compete against such an experienced rival as Leica.

 

Maybe in 10 years time :rolleyes: *dreaming*

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Actually a D800e with a Zeiss ZF.2 35mm f/2 will beat it handily, in terms of what you are looking at with specs.

 

"producing a image much better" is highly subjective. I have an M9 and a D800E. I use only a 21mm Zeiss and a 200mm f/2 on my Nikon as those are the only two lenses I have found to be better than what I could get on my M9. Increased dynamic range and such doesn't mean "better image." There are times when I've adjusted in post the dynamic range as it seemed a bit too HDR like from the D800E. I think it's a silly trap to fall into to think that the newer cameras will get you a "better image." In fact, I think that some of the qualities of the M9 in terms of IQ are a result of the sensor differences.

 

I'm not looking at specs I'm looking at files. The RX1 produces a much better image than the M9 and the D800e + Sigma or Nikon 35 lenses don't seem to produce a better image than the RX1 to my eye. I have not seen anything from the Zeiss ZF.2 35mm. The D800e is only lacking good glass to compete and beat the RX1. And, that is all that is out there at 35mm that would beat the little RX1.

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