Sensor crack and out of warranty

[hoppyman]

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Six months ago Leica Camera made an official announcement here:
Leica Camera AG - Leica M9 / Battery Low Issue
regarding a second rare fault with the M9 (battery life in that instance)
That is where the mentioned 30,000 M9's sold number comes from.
Obviously that number must now be higher.

Looking at the serial numbers only thread it looks like about 52 discrete reports (one an M9-P) if I added thenm correctly
Half of those are from members with very low post counts (~1-10) That last suggests to me that those people may have joined expressly to report the problem here or were motivated to speak up.
Nothing wrong with that of course. It does suggest to me that we have captured most of the on-line reports in this forum. Unless anyone has seen any significant number of reports elsewhere (and not duplicates)?

52 reports in that thread from 30,000+ sold is something less than 0.2% reported here to have this fault currently.

Once again can anyone point to any instances where Leica Camera has charged to repair this fault? The first five months of sales are past their 2 yr warranty expiry date.

[wlaidlaw]

Originally Posted by wattsy

Wilson, you might have been on holiday at the time but the sensor business has already been sold to a private equity outfit (Platinum?). That said, your question about availability in 4-5 years still stands.

Now I am really worried ;-}}

If it had been Blackstone rather than Platinum, at least there would have been some commonality of interest.

Wilson

[wlaidlaw]

Originally Posted by hoppyman

Once again can anyone point to any instances where Leica Camera has charged to repair this fault? The first five months of sales are past their 2 yr warranty expiry date.

Geoff,

The payment or not issue is not something that worries me greatly. If I have used a camera for 5 years or so, I don't think it is unreasonable for me to contribute to having a new sensor fitted. It is the availability of sensors in a few years time, which is more my concern. I know people say that a digital camera is ephemera and should be treated as disposable. I am not convinced that that should apply to a £5000+ camera. I will however, be surprised if my M9 is working as well as my IIF or M4, when it reaches the age they are at present.

Wilson

[jaapv]

Originally Posted by andybarton

If you are that one in a thousand, then it's going to hurt.

I thought they'd sorted this problem out about 18 months ago.

That is true Andy. But as Leica has promised a very fast turnaround and no costs, the hurt at least is limited.

[Paul J]

The roll eyes doesn't bother me in the slightest. I don't care for peer pressure and I will continue to ask without worry. I also really don't mind, at all, if people have an opposing opinion. I am a professional, this is my professional tool. I spent a lot of money on this kit and I want some assurance. It seems wether that comes now, or when it happens is out of any of our hands. The brand is not based on disposable products. It's based on history and heritage. It's one of the reasons we buy into the brand. So in 5-7 years time if it does occur I hope it will be fixed, that's all I'm saying. Given the fact that sensor parts will become difficult to find once the camera has been made "obsolete" and that it continues to occur in newer models, that it is random and there are no batches to recall, someone wether it's Kodak, Leica or Jenoptik or whoever is taking the sensor and bonding it to the filter needs to be indefinitely responsible for a process that has create a known repeating issue.

[jaapv]

Leica -or any manufacturer for that matter- undoubtedly has made their sums about expected sensor failures and replacement stock. That are figures that are normally not given out. I think the DMR situation is a bad example, as it was not built by Leica themselves but by a party that got involved in a messy corporate struggle. I should hope the very real trouble that has caused - I am a DMR owner myself- has served as a lesson to keep such provisions within Leica themselves. As said, the Digilux2 situation may be more indicative. The Sony sensor is long out of production, but clearly sufficient numbers have been stocked.

[bocaburger]

The issue as I see it is, Leica evidently still has no clue as to why some sensors are cracking. As long as that is true then neither Leica nor anyone else can say positively whether it's a matter of just a tiny % of sensors which will crack, or whether those are simply at the edge of tolerance, but that many more sensors may crack over time. Few companies would stock enough spare sensors to replace a majority or all of them.

What I wonder is if Leica might find some supplier to source the IR glass and thus be able to refurbish the sensors which are otherwise perfectly serviceable aside from the broken cover glass. That way they would have a limitless supply of rebuilt sensors.

[jaapv]

How do you make the mental jump from about 50 sensors out of more than 30.000 to " the majority" ?

[simplemind]

Originally Posted by Paul J

The thought of it is scary, right?

It scares me to think that these sensor cracks can appear at any time without warning. And continue to do so on the M9P. It scares me more so that these cracks can appear when the camera is out of warranty. I wonder if Leica will repair this should the issue arise? Has any statement been made?

Comparisons are generally pointless in this regard but Apple did replace the logic board, out of warranty, on the known erratically faulty model of Mac Book Pro that I owned. Canon also added a component to the mirror of my old 5D when it fell off from a design flaw. It was also out of warranty.

Canon fix the problem in the following items,
· # 2xxxxxx and 3xxxxx and improved LCD screen
Leica did not
Leica put the same glass #3.8xxxxx and #4.207xxx

[andybarton]

This has nothing to do with an LCD screen

[simplemind]

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I know,
is a comment, as an example.
Also solve the problem of the mirror, Canon LCD improved in the following batch.
Leica followed the same faulty sensors installed, even knowing the problem containing.
We are in 2012 and the problem continues,the proof is that there are new cases with recent serial numbers

[bocaburger]

Originally Posted by jaapv

How do you make the mental jump from about 50 sensors out of more than 30.000 to " the majority" ?

Are all 30K M9 owners are on this forum? How many are? It's 50 out of that many.

Recently someone with an M9P had the sensor crack. So we do know the problem was not limited to a certain batch of early-production sensors. So far any statements Leica has issued said they are still trying to discover the cause. Until they know what's causing it, there is no way anyone can say for certain whether or not the potential for cracking exists in only a small %, or in all of them.

However, there is a scenario in which a set of tolerances can line-up such as to promote early cracking with a minimal number of heat-cool cycles, but that with enough repeated heat-cool cycles more of them may crack. I did not say that was the case, only that it can't be ruled out as long as Leica has no definitive answer as to the cause.

[jaapv]

As it happens we do know, that is all I can say.

[Hank Taylor]

Yesterday When I check my pictures I noticed a crack on my sensor. Will plan to send back today to Leica for repairs along with a Elmarit f2.8 90mm to have it coded. My M9 was received Oct 2009 # 3810XXX.

It's reassuring to know Leica even when out of warrantee will replace a sensor when it wasn't the fault of the owner from mishandling.

Hank

[colonel]

there is a longeivity issue

I have had many digital cameras and have never heard of sensor breaking
Other things break, but not the sensor (for example Canon 5D sensors falling off the mount due to faulty glue)

With a product like this, ones does need to have confidence that if it lay down for 10 years, your could blow the dust off and take it out for a few shots for old times sake!

Due to the cost of the M9 (even post M10), I would personally recommend taking advantage of the annual extended 290 EURO warranty with the M9 while you keep it, as its a small price to pay for piece of mind. Its also transferrable and gives a future buyer confidence proportional to the time left.

[jaapv]

Let's consider: The thing breaking is the IR filter cover glass, not the sensor. From the whole M8/M9 saga we know that the thickness of the IR filter is the main problem area with a short-register camera. As it is it was considered a miracle that Leica and Kodak managed to build a full-frame M9 at all. It is not an excuse, but it is an indication that this is a construction to the limits of technical possibility. As such we should not be surprised - even if it is quite disappointing that this problem could not be prevented or maybe even foreseen.

[bocaburger]

Originally Posted by jaapv

Let's consider: The thing breaking is the IR filter cover glass, not the sensor. From the whole M8/M9 saga we know that the thickness of the IR filter is the main problem area with a short-register camera. As it is it was considered a miracle that Leica and Kodak managed to build a full-frame M9 at all. It is not an excuse, but it is an indication that this is a construction to the limits of technical possibility. As such we should not be surprised - even if it is quite disappointing that this problem could not be prevented or maybe even foreseen.

As far as "forseen", the physical properties of the glass are not unknowns. Neither is the operating temperature range of the sensor, nor the range of ambient temperature in which the camera (and it's owner) could reasonably be expected to operate. It should not have been difficult to correctly estimate the probability of glass failure. It would seem that either Kodak failed to do their due diligence, or minimized the potential to Leica.

Or Leica's financial managers calculated that doing warranty replacements just until a permanent solution could be found, would be less detrimental than delaying release of the M9 until that solution was implemented. However, it would seem from the fact that replacement sensors and sensors in the M9-P have cracked, that the solution has not yet been implemented. At some point if Leica has to keep replacing them ad infinitum, it could become quite a significant financial fiasco. But that's the thing about corporate business in this day and age, those in charge of decision-making are mainly concerned about making the next quarterly report look good.

[bocaburger]

Originally Posted by colonel

With a product like this, ones does need to have confidence that if it lay down for 10 years, your could blow the dust off and take it out for a few shots for old times sake!

Assuming you could still find a new battery for it, as the Li-ion batteries you laid down with it would not likely take a charge in 10 years' time.

[wlaidlaw]

I just hope that when Blackstone look at the next set of figures and see the warranty costs, they don't say "whoa guys, lets stop this being Mr. Reasonable on these repairs" and institute the sort of shrug of the shoulders treatment we are used to from Canon. When the little Canon portable printer I bought for travelling, died after 13 months and just 65 pages printed, saying its ink washout reservoir was full, Canon were wholly disinterested in helping. I was so angry I was tempted to take them to the small claims court but fortunately for my wallet, reason prevailed.

Wilson

[colonel]

Originally Posted by bocaburger

Assuming you could still find a new battery for it, as the Li-ion batteries you laid down with it would not likely take a charge in 10 years' time.

well I didn't have a problem with a Sony Clie from 2002 or a 12 year old Panny Video camera or a Creative Zen W from 2006 (although it did need a little coaxing ...)